Reputation System: Moral Compass or Game breaker?

Danrilor

I have wondered this for a very long time and want everybody's opinion on it. Reputation has oft been complained about but has remained through all versions of the game unscathed. Is the reputation system a moral compass for CHARNAME's journey that is inseparable from the game, or is it an unfair annoyance? Here are some of the thoughts that kept me out of the really good schools.

- Does reputation break the game? How far can you really get in BG1 or BG2 with a reputation of 2, for example. You talk to Skie Silvershield without her evil boyfriend and she calls guards to kill you. Defend yourself and your 20 reputation is now 2. You have gone from hero to zero, nobody in the shops will sell to you, and the entire flaming fist wants to kill you (including the ones that that you need to do quests for to continue the game). Game broken. Saravok wins. You might as well just turn to dust right then.

- Without reputation, however, what is keeping you from deciding that Naskel has outlived its usefulness once your quests there are done? Is your decision to put that entire bucolic hamlet to the sword a legitimate role playing decision, especially for an evil character? Is there are better way to manage role playing and preserve playability even for evil bhaalspawn?

- You can keep your reputation high indefinitely by systemic bribery. The clergy in BG 1/2 seems to function as some kind of mafia that you can grease the palms of to keep the authorities off you back and strong arm local merchants into giving you better prices. Nothing else can possibly justify the ridiculous swing in behavior by NPCs.

What do you guys think? Should reputation be fixed, be given the heave-ho, or is it just too indispensable?

nano

It can certainly be improved... I think everyone agrees with that. But it does help to think of it only as reputation, and not a moral compass.

There are mods that address some of the issues you mention.

Shar

Yeah evil NPCs leave with high rep never made sense to me. But thats more of that Lawful Anal vs Chaotic Stupid argument...

BelgarathMTH

Reputation is a bogus, broken system, which has nothing to do with the actual morality of your decisions in the game, unless you are playing the paragon of goodness and right.

The 3rd edition set of games (mostly NWN in all its incarnations) does a much better job with its alignment graph system, but even that is flawed, according to the whims of whatever DM creates the mod. The default campaigns don't even make use of it in any significant way, and when NWN2 tries to, it employs bogus reasoning, especially for alignment-dependent classes. (WTH - my pally just got chaotic points for stopping a robbery? My bard just got lawful points for not lying to the quest-giver?)

I often use Keeper to just change the alignments of NPC's I want to use. Edwin is LN, not LE. Jaheira is NG, not TN. Viconia, Dorn, or take your pick, are all CN as opposed to whatever form of Evil.

In the implementation of alignment in the various D&D based computer games, I've found that Lawful Good *always* equals "Lawful Stupid", and any variant of Evil *always* plays as "Stupid Evil".

EDIT: The big-bads of both BG1 and BG2 are notable exceptions. It's really too bad that they couldn't create a system that would allow evil PC's and NPC's to have similar depth to the actual villains of the story. Evil vs. Evil can be just intriguing as Evil vs. Good, but, these games are sorely lacking in any believable or engaging way to play Smart Evil.

KidCarnival

It's mostly an annoyance and a game mechanic that weights less than roleplay to me. I play evil most of the time, and high charisma most of the time. There is no reason my charming, good-at-lying charname would be "despised" for crimes with no witness.
I try to stay at 14 rep max, and often skip smaller quests that increase rep if I don't absolutely need the reward, and do all rep lowering quests anyway just to stay on the middle path (without turning into a crazed mass murderer).

For some evil NPCs, it simply makes no sense that they leave with high rep - Kagain being a good example, Eldoth another. So to roleplay, I have to ignore their complaints.

TheGraveDigger

Does any game have a really good reputation system?

The problem with the Baldur's Gate system is it changes too quickly and has no lasting effect. 1 kill takes your from 20 to 10 rep... Buying Firebead a book from across the street grants 1 rep! It's just silly.

Here's some similar aged games with rep systems that don't screw you over.

Jagged Alliance 2... I killed the rebels(the good guys), butchered their children, and chopped off their heads. Even Razor and Haywire were a bit disgusted with me... I remained an evil warlord for the whole game, and the towns hated me for it. But it didn't ruin my game or make it unplayable at all.

Fallout 1 and 2... I wiped out peaceful settlements, killed children with dynamite, and even murdered my wife. I ended up hated by all and hunted by bounty hunters. But my game wasn't ruined or unplayable...

Do anything similar in BG and your game is pretty much screwed because of the endless super guards and deathscript NPCs. Unless ofcourse you're rich and can get to a temple in time... then all is forgiven and you're a hero again.

Kaltzor

One thing I still wonder, why does Reputation affect prices the way it does... I suppose people are more happy to sell stuff to the awesome great hero... But when you're known to slaughter a whole village at the drop of a hat, do they really want to overcharge you?

Emptiness

The temple donation mechanic is a little bit awkward, but I look at it like this: If you run around doing horrible things, someone will see and blab to the authorities. This isn't a society of due process and civil rights; if the authorities think that you're dangerous they will take action to stop you. Most people aren't going to stick their necks out to defend you if you get into trouble, so it's your word against some anonymous accuser - and the authorities aren't stopping to listen to what you have to say for yourself.

If you can get to a temple, though, and request sanctuary (read: buy sanctuary), then you have an advocate that can talk to the authorities on your behalf. The guards may track you to the temple, but they won't charge in and start killing or beating people to get you or information about your whereabouts because they are unwilling to anger a god by disrespecting that god's clergy. That puts the authorities in a conversation with someone who is willing to argue against the accusations leveled against you:

"No, my child, Devilspawn the Necromancer could not have killed all the puppies in the king's kennel. We here at the Temple of Helm know him to be a generous soul, incapable of such cruelty - and besides, he has been here at the temple in meditation for a fortnight now. No, Devilspawn's accuser must speak falsehood - perhaps even to cover up her own misdeed. You should go now and find this child 'Honest Milly' before any more puppies suffer at her hands."

GamingFreak

I think it's less to do with Reputation and more to do with the fact that the game just kind of frowns on you being evil. Ever. Sure you get a couple unique quest alternatives for solutions, and a few items only evil party members can use, but other than that everything having to do with being evil is pretty much ignored.

Shar

TheGraveDigger said:

Does any game have a really good reputation system?

The problem with the Baldur's Gate system is it changes too quickly and has no lasting effect. 1 kill takes your from 20 to 10 rep... Buying Firebead a book from across the street grants 1 rep! It's just silly.

Here's some similar aged games with rep systems that don't screw you over.

Jagged Alliance 2... I killed the rebels(the good guys), butchered their children, and chopped off their heads. Even Razor and Haywire were a bit disgusted with me... I remained an evil warlord for the whole game, and the towns hated me for it. But it didn't ruin my game or make it unplayable at all.

Fallout 1 and 2... I wiped out peaceful settlements, killed children with dynamite, and even murdered my wife. I ended up hated by all and hunted by bounty hunters. But my game wasn't ruined or unplayable...

Do anything similar in BG and your game is pretty much screwed because of the endless super guards and deathscript NPCs. Unless ofcourse you're rich and can get to a temple in time... then all is forgiven and you're a hero again.

Huh? I pimped my wife in f2

Danrilor

These are all good points. I think that the reputation system can be better, though. Baby steps in reputation are important. Ten point swings are ridiculous. I actually think BG2 did it a little better by having more corrupt guards. One of the reasons why it was so a pain to play a thief was because some random peasant with barely a line of sight to you would call a flaming fist to kill you for taking a book off a shelf... even if you immediately put it back! Browsing a library is an executable offense! Then it launches a basically inescapable fight encounter that will cost you fat reputation unless you apply cheese (run out the door really fast and shut it). These are just the petty annoyances, but it gets serious when you have done so many quests that earn a tiny reputation reward and then are fed a 10 point reputation loss for fighting off a rabid guard who wanted to kill you for reading a book. Hell, at Candlekeep they won't even let you walk to the circulation desk to check it out! It magnifies in absurdity when you get to higher levels and everybody seems to know that you are the seed of the god of freaking murder and that doesn't hurt your reputation as much as failing a pickpocket attempt.