Archer Fun Times

Moczo

So I'm starting a new game, and for a little variety I'm gonna try rolling a Ranger with the Archer kit. I've never much bothered with projectiles in SoA, however, so I'm not really sure what type of bow to throw my points into. I'm assuming either Shortbows or Crossbows, since those are the two I can think of that provide weapons with unlimited ammo, but does anyone have advice on which is a better long-term option?

Rann

Without spoiling too much for anyone, ammo for any bow really ceases to become any issue in the ToB phase of the game (as you probably know already if you are replaying), and before that point I've never had problems keeping enough ammo for any bow anyway (especially now that they stack in groups of 80). It's just hard to beat a longbow for versatility -- faster than a crossbow, more reach than a shortbow), especially magical/composite versions. Unless you're really fixated/metagaming on the unlimited ammo bows, it's hard to justify not having levels in longbow. YMMV, of course...

Remenissions

Bow is the most used ranged weapon for good reason. Good damage, good speed, basically unlimited ammo, and a lot of npc's have at least 1 point in it. And now you can stack up to 80 arrows in one slot.. I remember when BG1/TotSC were 20 per slot.. saves a LOT of bagroom these days

[Deleted User]

Shortbow is your best bet. You can get the Tuigan Bow very early in SoA, which is the best bow in the hands of an Archer. Also gives you the option of using Gesen against enemies that require a high weapon modifier to hit. Stock up on Acid Arrows for the best consistent damage.

Moczo

Ooooooooooh. I confess, it wasn't a point I'd considered, but yeah, arrows stack in 80's now, don't they? Managing the inventory isn't as big a concern with that, which opens up new alternatives. Decisions, decisions...

SpiffyMcBang

I played an archer all the way through BG:EE, SoA, and ToB. Since my previous playthroughs hadn't focused nearly as much on ranged damage as this one did, I was pretty disappointed to discover that she didn't become quite the distance death machine in BG2 I'd imagined as I ran her solo through BG1. She's still dangerous, but it's strange to think that a fighter with grand mastery in slings would do as much or more damage than her, despite all the archer bonuses.

That's not a joke, either. Right now Viconia is doing 22-25 damage per shot with the Erinne Sling +5, whereas my archer is doing 19-24 damage with the Heartseeker composite longbow. There's one bow with higher damage, the Strong Arm- +3 versus the Heartseeker's +2- but I never got it. Each of them are using +2 ammo, which is +2 damage for Viconia but not my archer. Switching to +4 bullets will put her at 24-27 damage. A fighter with grand mastery will have three attacks per round versus the archer's four, but the fighter would also get another +5 damage bonus from proficiency.

Viconia has 23 strength currently, 22 from the fire giant girdle and +1 from the Talos ring. So let's say our example fighter is at 22, which would give one less damage than Viconia is doing. Using the same gear, the fighter would have 28-31 damage using +4 bullets, times three attacks per round, for total damage of 84-93 damage per round barring misses (which would be unlikely apart from rolling a 1). That's an 88.5 average. My archer gets 19-24 times four damage per round, for 76-96 total, or 86 average. If I hadn't derped and remembered picked up the Strong Arm, it would be 80-100, or a 90 average.

Whether or not this makes any sense, this is the reality. Even the +9 damage bonus my archer currently has barely lets her keep pace with a slinger. Like I said, she's effective, so I'm not saying you shouldn't play an archer with a giant longbow, but if you want to be an honest-to-god badass in BG2, I don't think you have any options other than to run short bows and use Tuigan's. I don't know precisely how Tuigan's works with having multiple base attacks, but if you get even one more arrow out of the deal it will out-damage any other bow in the game.

[Deleted User]

The trick with Tuigan is that it lets you get the most leverage out of your Archer damage bonuses. Using it with Acid Arrows gives you a 3-10 damage range, +1 from the Tuigan, +5 for grandmastery, +9 for your Archer (possibly another +2 for gauntlets of weapon expertise). So 18-25 damage over 5 attacks for 90-125, or 107.5 average. And you can take a damage hit and switch to Gesen to hit enemies that need a +4.

Crossbows are an alternative; if we take an archer of the same level and give them crossbow grand mastery, you can use The Army Scythe with bolts of lightning or Firetooth. If we assume the enemy always makes their save against the bolts (a safe assumption by ToB), that's still 1-8+2-8+1+5+9 or 18-31, which comes out to 98 average damage over 4 shots. And you can switch to Firetooth to hurt any enemy that needs a higher magical + to hurt (Firetooth ammo-stacked with bolts of lightning will actually do a little more damage than Army Scythe, but still slightly less than Tuigan in the hands of an archer).

If you want to use the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization on your archer, that can actually cause the other options to move slightly ahead of Tuigan, as Tuigan is at the APR cap while the other bows can still benefit from the extra half attack a round. On the other hand, that means you aren't giving it to one of your front liners (you might still get more overall damage by giving it to your archer, depending on who you've got and what they're wielding).

The problem with the available longbows is that none of them get bonus attacks, none of them generate ammo that hits at a +4 or a +5, and the best damage bonus on a bow is the +3 from Strong Arm. If there was, say, a longbow that generated +5 ammunition and had a corresponding +5 damage bonus (sprinkle minor features to taste), that would be enough to put them on the map.

Lathrael

Actually, your archer becomes weaker in SoA and much more at ToB. It's because missiles are way too powerful on original BG1(i soloed BG1 with Coran once...a NPC, not even main char), and devs decided to nerf them in BG2. This was unnecessary, since missiles in BG1 ruled because low hp on enemies meant they would die before reaching you, and with increased health of most NPC's in BG2 this was no longer a problem. After they nerfed most missile damage on top of that, they became pretty useless.

Shame, this issue is not adresses at EE. Best action would be switching all missile stats with BG1 and BG2 (Ie: 1d2 fire damage bonus on fire arrows for BG1 and 1d6 for BG2).

Real

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Rann said:

Without spoiling too much for anyone, ammo for any bow really ceases to become any issue in the ToB phase of the game (as you probably know already if you are replaying), and before that point I've never had problems keeping enough ammo for any bow anyway (especially now that they stack in groups of 80). It's just hard to beat a longbow for versatility -- faster than a crossbow, more reach than a shortbow), especially magical/composite versions. Unless you're really fixated/metagaming on the unlimited ammo bows, it's hard to justify not having levels in longbow. YMMV, of course...

There is no difference in range between longbow, shortbow, crossbow and slings. Thrown weapons have slightly shorter range (but not that significant). Longbows also do not have any speedfactor advantages over shortbows. In fact, longbows are on average, slower than shortbows. If by speed, you meant the number of attacks per round, there should be no differences between the two unless if you use Tuigan (which is a shortbow) which adds one extra APR.

SpiffyMcBang said:

That's not a joke, either. Right now Viconia is doing 22-25 damage per shot with the Erinne Sling +5, whereas my archer is doing 19-24 damage with the Heartseeker composite longbow. There's one bow with higher damage, the Strong Arm- +3 versus the Heartseeker's +2- but I never got it. Each of them are using +2 ammo, which is +2 damage for Viconia but not my archer. Switching to +4 bullets will put her at 24-27 damage. A fighter with grand mastery will have three attacks per round versus the archer's four, but the fighter would also get another +5 damage bonus from proficiency.
Viconia has 23 strength currently, 22 from the fire giant girdle and +1 from the Talos ring. So let's say our example fighter is at 22, which would give one less damage than Viconia is doing. Using the same gear, the fighter would have 28-31 damage using +4 bullets, times three attacks per round, for total damage of 84-93 damage per round barring misses (which would be unlikely apart from rolling a 1). That's an 88.5 average. My archer gets 19-24 times four damage per round, for 76-96 total, or 86 average. If I hadn't derped and remembered picked up the Strong Arm, it would be 80-100, or a 90 average.

Whether or not this makes any sense, this is the reality. Even the +9 damage bonus my archer currently has barely lets her keep pace with a slinger. Like I said, she's effective, so I'm not saying you shouldn't play an archer with a giant longbow, but if you want to be an honest-to-god badass in BG2, I don't think you have any options other than to run short bows and use Tuigan's. I don't know precisely how Tuigan's works with having multiple base attacks, but if you get even one more arrow out of the deal it will out-damage any other bow in the game.

An archer with grandmastery in longbow, would also get a +5 damage bonus from proficiencies, similar to that of a fighter. It is true that +1/+2 arrows don't confer damage bonuses like +1/+2 bullets, but you've overlooked other arrows. Acid arrows confers 3-10 total damage which is comparable to +2 bullets' 4-7 damage and has the bonus of disrupting mages with stoneskin. Not to mention that the best bullets obtainable from shops before ToB are the +2 bullets, whereas the best arrows obtainable from shops are the Arrows of Piercing (+4 thac0, 7-12 total damage) and Arrows of Biting (30% total hp over 20 seconds). Then, of course there are the arrows of dispelling (can be useful but also very expensive).

Having said all of that, I do agree that in general, shortbows have an extra edge on crossbows and longbows if only due to Tuigan. But the differences are not that extreme, especially if you, as Kaigen mentioned, toss a Gauntlet of Extraordinary Specialization on non-Tuigan users.

ifupauline

you have that shortbow that you can buy in Trademeet and gives you unlimited +3 fire arrow, sure it's not as fast as the tuigan bow but I think it's better because of the +3 arrow fire. I think archer are very powerful they will with no doubt be the first cause of death among your enemies they are just a bit boring to play since they can't put 2 slot on melee weapon.

Maylander

Another vote here for the Tuigan. It's amazing due to the impressive +damage modifier Archers get, and will easily last until you get Gesen, which is the best interrupter in the game. For some strange reason it seems to pass virtually all forms of protection, including stuff that magical/elemental/electrical damage can't penetrate. It's as if it does normal (passing Protection from Magical Weapons), magical (passing Protection from Normal Weapons) and electrical damage (passing Stoneskin), all at the same time.