Request: Rebalancing Stoneskin/Ironskin/Protecion from Magical Weapons

bill_zagoudis

Currently all of the above spells are extremely powerfull and not even high level spells,i would like to see their power diminished in a manner that affects mostly party members and less the NPCs, how?

I believe a reasonable fix to the problem would be reducing the duration of stoneskin/ironskin to be on par with other defensive spells like 1 round/level,and ideally changing the absorption not to a number of attacks but to a specific number of damage,possibly growing per level till a specific cap. It makes no sense to be able to absorb 10 dragon attacks or 10 goblin attacks...

Lastly for protection from magical weapons while for the npc's it's ok(we pause and swap to normal weapons)
for the PC is pretty much physical immunity for 4 rounds,which is too strong,some times i feel my mage is simply not dying and tanking should not be among his abilities(buying time till fighters aid you is ok ofc) Personally i'd rather see it removed from the game as the Mantle/Improved Mantle/Absolute Immunity serve it's purpose better,thought that may be a bit to drastic...thoughts?

ps: a few posts below it was mentioned that misses in AD&D actually remove layers of stoneskin unlike the game,i didn't know this when i posted and that's most likely all stoneskin needs to be both balanced and true to the AD&D rules.

Xavioria

well personally stoneskins and Ironskins has always seemed OP to me. ESPECIALLY if you're a sorcerer (If you're a mage or a druid, you're making a defensive trade off) One problem with some of what you said though, is that you may make it UNDERPOWERED to the point that no one uses it anymore. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but mages are pretty squishy in the beginning and parts of mid game.

The_New_Romance

In the beginning, though, there is no Stoneskin. I'd welcome it if some of the spells were toned down, others up maybe (there are a slew of practically useless spells), but I don't know whether that is possible with the strange contracts. Plus, they're based on real AD&D spells, so it's not really BG's fault.

ajwz

Honestly, just a rebalancing of enemy mage AI to cast breach more often would fix any issues here.
Bear in mind that nerfing these abilities will affect enemy casters as well, and these are 2 of thier more potent weapons.

As for protect from magic weapons, personally I find the summons of creatures like fire elemental which are immune to NON-magical weapons are much more game breaking. On example I would like to see fixed is the air warden in the planar prison, who is supposed to be a very poweful demon can be beaten with a single elemental summon.

FrozenDervish

Honestly there is no reason to balance out spells that are perfectly fine and would ruin others entertainment and if you wish for it to be nerfed you can do it yourself.

As a side note these spells are in the 2nd edition manual as made in game and WotC do not like their material being changed or modified.

Xavioria

@ajwz your suggestion is absolutely flawless... i give you props.

bill_zagoudis

ajwz said:

Honestly, just a rebalancing of enemy mage AI to cast breach more often would fix any issues here.
Bear in mind that nerfing these abilities will affect enemy casters as well, and these are 2 of thier more potent weapons.

As for protect from magic weapons, personally I find the summons of creatures like fire elemental which are immune to NON-magical weapons are much more game breaking. On example I would like to see fixed is the air warden in the planar prison, who is supposed to be a very poweful demon can be beaten with a single elemental summon.

more breach could definately be ok,as i don't recall seeing it often,as for the normal wep immunue summons,imo they don't need a nerf, it's just that every 'strong' enemy should be treated as having enchanted weapons in BG and SoA, and in ToB everyone should be enchanced at least at +1 for lesser foes,+3 for strong enemies and +5 for bosses. The demon you mentioned is just forgotten by the previous devs i think,it should definately have it's attacks count for magical.

MooseChangerPat

@bill_zagoudis

You do remember how little +5 weapons are in Shadows of Amn right? Maybe... 3? Even if you count in Watcher's Keep, you only really get +3s or +4s at best unless you have Cespenar to upgrade them for you. And you won't find him until TOB. +5 for bosses is a bit... excessive.

I'm also inclined to think that BG is challenging enough for people just getting into the game, and things that dub down your power can be a big detriment to getting new players. While I agree that Stoneskin can be really, REALLY powerful, perhaps they should impliment other kinds of methods for dubbing it down. Such as the suggestion of vamping up the enemy AI to try to dispel it, or perhaps to have it that they will try to use lots of fast little hits on you to eat through the stoneskins... such as darts?

Really though, it is going by the AD&D rules, so changing it in the way you're suggesting is practically unthinkable for them.

Galactygon

There are several reasons why these spells are overpowered relative to AD&D:

In BGII, you are drained one stonekin for every successful hit by the opponent. In AD&D, even misses drain stoneskins.

In BGII Protection from Normal/Magical Weapons protected you against natural normal/magical monster attacks. My interpretation is that in AD&D, these spells are effective against hand-held/ranged normal/magical weapons (swords, arrows, etc.) but not natural attacks. In fact, in AD&D both spells lasted for 1 round/level rather than the fixed 4 rounds for PfMW.

-Galactygon

FrozenDervish

@galactygon

Stone skin shells also dissipate from magical attacks like magic missile so each missile takes off a layer of stoneskin along with dealing magic damage to the mage.

bill_zagoudis

Galactygon said:

There are several reasons why these spells are overpowered relative to AD&D:

In BGII, you are drained one stonekin for every successful hit by the opponent. In AD&D, even misses drain stoneskins.

In BGII Protection from Normal/Magical Weapons protected you against natural normal/magical monster attacks. My interpretation is that in AD&D, these spells are effective against hand-held/ranged normal/magical weapons (swords, arrows, etc.) but not natural attacks. In fact, in AD&D both spells lasted for 1 round/level rather than the fixed 4 rounds for PfMW.

-Galactygon

quite interesting your second line i didn't know that in D&D misses drain stoneskin. if it's so then stoneskin would not be OP at all and the game would be closer to the original D&d rules,perhaps that's exactly what we need

Cloutier

Stoneskin is not overpowered IMO, it's mostly the AI that doesn't deal with it well.

It can be breached. Every magic missile removes one layer. It doesn't protect against the elemental damage of weapons. Doesn't protect againt INT or level drain.

O_Bruce

@Cloutier Magic missiles doesn't remove stoneskin. Only physical attacks do (thought magic missiles are still able to hurt mage on stoneskin).

FrozenDervish

MM takes off layers in PnP but don't think it does in game

LadyRhian

I'd like to see Ironguard as a spell-metal passes harmlessly through your body- iron cages/bars are unable to hold you. But you can't wield a metal weapon and if a weapon is magical, when it hits you, you still take damage from the magic +'s (so a +1 weapon does 1 point of damage). Nor does it protect you very well from arrows- as there is a wooden shaft at the end of that sharp point.

MooseChangerPat

I'm pretty positive that misses did not remove a layer of stoneskin in AD&D because that doesn't even make sense! Oh no! Look! I shot the wall over next to Charname by mistake! Oh hey, that caused his stoneskin to wear off ! WHAT?! How?! WHY?! If it doesn't even touch the stoneskin how on earth is it supposed to be effecting it?! I mean what about with critical misses, like hitting one of your buddies instead? Should THAT get rid of stoneskins too?! What if they are both wearing stoneskin?! Do they both lose a layer from it?! Or just the intended target?!

Sorry... I'll stop ranting now... but seriously... what?

As for protection from whatever level of magical weapon, shouldn't that then mean that a bare handed monk should be able to punch through the protection from normal/magic weapons? If we're going to say that a dragons claws aren't considered a magical weapon at any rate. Although I'm of the opinion that since the spell only lasts 4 rounds, it's hardly all that overpowered, and all of these spells are still dispellable as mentioned.

inwe

I really hope that BGEE doesn't nerf any class (skill/spell) because it has absolutely no sense to me... I really prefer to play the game I felt in love in 1998 with his implemented rules from AD&D. If we start to nerf skills, weapons, spells… it will not be anymore Baldur's Gate, it will be just a mod.

Bercon

Magic missile is already pretty strong against mages since it removes mirror images. I don't think it should be made even more powerful by also removing stone skins. That'd make mages too easy to beat in BG2. Keep in mind that the AI very rarely uses magic missiles until all higher level spells have run out so the change would have more impact on how player uses the spell. If the change would only benefit enemy mages (i.e. players mm would not remove stone skins) it would just seem too unfair.

Stone skin doesn't protect from elemental components of the attacks or other side effects like level drain so its not that overpowered.

bill_zagoudis

hm,actually it does make sense. As most misses are due to armor and not evasion in D&D

MooseChangerPat

If the miss is due to armor, then shouldn't it not effect the stoneskin because the stoneskin is an extra layer of skin, and should therefore be beneath your armor?

Illustair

Is it just me or do enemies cast similar to dispel spells alot? I don't think they're imbalanced at all, you can even remove all of these spells in one unlucky dispel magic roll. Bam, you've just wasted several spell slots. Not to mention you've already "wasted" spell slots for them to begin with that you could have had used for offensive spells. With so many trying to hit you, and some that can do several attacks in one round - there are several occasions where your defensive spells can be stripped off very fast. Without them, a mage is as good as dead.

Cloutier

ZelgadisGW said:

@Cloutier Magic missiles doesn't remove stoneskin. Only physical attacks do (thought magic missiles are still able to hurt mage on stoneskin).

I am almost certain that a magic missile removes a stoneskin. I don't have an install to verify. My memories could be from a mod, but I don't think so. Here is the spell description from the vanilla game, though:

"It is important to note that this will not protect the wizard
from any magical attacks such as fireball, however it will protect him
from physical magical attacks such as magic missile."

Also: Stoneskin cannot normally be breached, this is a feature implemented by the G3 spell revision. I stand corrected.

Sceptenar

These spells are primarily cast by mages who are incredibly vulnerable without such defenses. Two or three solid hits will kill just about any mage, so mages have a variety of protective spells to prevent this. Stoneskin and protection from magical weapons may seem overpowered, but that is just because you don't understand the limitations of them. For example, with stoneskin you can still be hit straight through it with things like magic missile (a first level spell) and protection from magical weapons won't stop a regular old quarterstaff (which is surprisingly lethal in the hands of a fighter with 18 str).
These spells DO NOT NEED NERFING, they work just as intended. Learn the limitations of them, and work around them. It's called STRATEGY. Mages should not be gimped because some people aren't prepared to face them.

bill_zagoudis

Sceptenar said:

These spells are primarily cast by mages who are incredibly vulnerable without such defenses. Two or three solid hits will kill just about any mage, so mages have a variety of protective spells to prevent this. Stoneskin and protection from magical weapons may seem overpowered, but that is just because you don't understand the limitations of them. For example, with stoneskin you can still be hit straight through it with things like magic missile (a first level spell) and protection from magical weapons won't stop a regular old quarterstaff (which is surprisingly lethal in the hands of a fighter with 18 str).
These spells DO NOT NEED NERFING, they work just as intended. Learn the limitations of them, and work around them. It's called STRATEGY. Mages should not be gimped because some people aren't prepared to face them.

you're presuming quite much here... actually my problem is not NPC mages,but that playthroughts with a sorcerer or a fighter/mage or a kensai/mage are too easy and stoneskin is a major factor for this, and no insane difficulty does nothing because i don't get hit at all even if i'm butchering things in mellee with my figter/mage,why all the stupid/childish agression for a mere disagrement?...

Cheesebelly

I don't see stoneskin as a deal breaker for either PCs, joinable NPCs or hostile NPCs. It's a dynamic of the game, that makes combat more interesting. Nerfing it serves no purpose - make enemy opponents smarter - make mages cast breach and if no mage is available, make enemies use elemental arrows (that bypass stoneskin) on mages. It's as simple as that (on the very same note for hostile NPCs, just use the crap outta the flail of ages - it will burn away those poor bastards easily, and if else fails, the slow effect of the flail will make all hostile mages a nuisance)


So basically, while I agree that stoneskin is OP, simply changing the computer's AI would make combat dynamics much more interesting!

bill_zagoudis

yep i'm good with both a nerf or an AI 'buff' to handle it..tbh i just want more challenge for a fighter/mage character which is my favourite char for RP reasons

Sceptenar

@bill_zagoudis
So because you use the protections well, you want to nerf them across the board? You have limited spells per day for a reason you know. Using them is what they are for.
If you think they make your life too easy then don't use them, problem solved. If the developers should do anything about it at all, it should be to improve the AI to make it better at countering the defenses, that doesn't mean gimping all mages everywhere.