Wasted opportunity for a monk stronghold ? (Spoilers)

Aranthys

Anyone else thinking that rasaad temple from his quest is a wasted opportunity for a new stronghold dedicated to monks ?

Eudaemonium

Very yes.

kamuizin

I think BG2 EE is a compendium of wasted opportunities, will all due respect to the devs and all.

element

yep pretty much

Wayniac

kamuizin said:

I think BG2 EE is a compendium of wasted opportunities, will all due respect to the devs and all.

Examples please.

And mind you, I don't think it is fair of you to list "wasted opportunities" as opportunities that they created. Otherwise, it would be impossible to not have wasted opportunities. There is ALWAYS something more that could have been done.

GamingFreak

A monk stronghold would be nice, but let's face it; aside from role-playing perspectives, by the end of the day, it's my monk's solemn duty... to punch a dragon in the face. This is preceded by his daily regimen of kicking a vampire in the arse, busting up a troll's nose, and slapping a drow. He ain't got no time for some stinkin' stronghold when he's busy humbling all of Faerûn with his martial dominance.

shawne

You'd need to have Rasaad in your party in order to get to the temple in the first place, though...

Aranthys

shawne said:

You'd need to have Rasaad in your party in order to get to the temple in the first place, though...

That's another topic, and, actually, another wasted opportunity, because, to be honest, they should have implemented the "big new quests" similiarly to the existing Valygar / Naliah / Keldorn / Mazzy / Haer'Dalis quests :

General quests tied to the character, where having the character makes for a better experience, but that you can experience alone.

It could have easily been done for :
- Hexxat quests (beside her initial quest : each other "visit XXX tomb" quest could very well be done alone)
- Neera quests (You could very well join the campment, do the wild mage quests, find the wild mage, liberate the wild mages alone...)
- Rasaad quests (You could very well investigate that new monk order alone...)
- Dorn is a bit tricky, but they could have implemented the quests differently (Beeing asked to do the job directly from the demon alongside Dorn, or even without him, hell, you're a f*****g bhaalspawn), having the quests be more "dorn-centered" if he is in your party.

They did deviate a lot from the original implementation of quests, tying the quests directly to the characters.
In a way, it makes it pretty cool for these characters to have dedicated personnalized quests that are lengthy, on the other hand, everyone loses on it because it means HAVING to get them in your party to even start to have a go at this new content.

Conceptually-wise, it kinda sucks, and goes against how the original quests/NPCs were designed, making this new content "stand-out".... something that was also a bit problematic in the original game (Recruit XXX or get screwed on new content - yay)

shawne

Hmm. I don't know, there might be a certain logic behind it in the sense that after fifteen years, everyone has their favorite NPCs/parties; the newer characters have to compete with longtime icons like Minsc and Jan. If you could take on the Red Wizards without Neera, most veteran players would probably do just that. At least this way you actually have to give the new characters a chance in order to explore the new areas...

booinyoureyes

Man.... I was hoping Rasaad's quest would open up a monk stronghold. Here's to mod-makers

Aranthys

shawne said:

Hmm. I don't know, there might be a certain logic behind it in the sense that after fifteen years, everyone has their favorite NPCs/parties; the newer characters have to compete with longtime icons like Minsc and Jan. If you could take on the Red Wizards without Neera, most veteran players would probably do just that. At least this way you actually have to give the new characters a chance in order to explore the new areas...

And that's precisely what I hate about the new content.
It's not giving new options, it's forcing new options through NPCs.

Both the NPCs AND the new locations are new content, and I really dispise the fact that they were linked together - but that was to be expected somehow, since it's how it was done in BG:EE.

Note that the new content is pretty cool, for sure (Tomb raiding for hexxat, slaughtering for dorn, fighting against the red wizards for Neera, invistigating a monk order for rasaad), but the limitations about the way it's beeing delivered is a bad thing, in my eyes.

The main reason why you like a character is usually not just his quest :
It's due to :
- His/her abilities (Stats, class)
- His/her voice & personnality
- The way he/she interact with others NPCs (Jan alone sucks a bit, but he becomes hilarious with other NPCs alongside)
- The way he/she interacts during your quest, commenting and answering to situations depending on their view/opinions.

I mean, look : all of the quests of BG2 were implemented this way, you pretty much never require to have a NPC with you to do any meaningful quest : All the personnal NPC quests are side quests to develop the character.

There's only one exception, it's the planar sphere, and even then, you're given an option to do it alone by just killing that darn ranger.

Maylander

There are unique existing quests too though. Jaheira, Jan, Edwin, Korgan and so on all have quests that can't be experienced without them. Sure, they might not have unique areas, but the actual quests are unique.

I wouldn't really call them more or less "meaningful" just because they don't involve a new area. That's the only real difference.

Aranthys

Maylander said:

There are unique existing quests too though. Jaheira, Jan, Edwin, Korgan and so on all have quests that can't be experienced without them. Sure, they might not have unique areas, but the actual quests are unique.

I never said that their quest weren't unique and that you could experience them without them in the party
I said that all the "big" quests in the game, even if that quest is tied to a character, are available without having to get that character.
On the other hand, of course, other characters do have unique quests, but these are usually "smaller, character-driven" quests.

I mean, all the new locations they've done could have very well be experienced by CHARNAME without these new companions : Having the compaions taints CHARNAME in a way (Lumia could have been also interesting as a good character, but with other objectives)

Just found out what I dislike, actually :
Their implementation switches the focus of story from your own journey as a Bhaalspawn to the journey of one of your party members, and this is a complete shift in the way NPCs / quests are represented in Baldur's Gate 2.

shawne

Aranthys said:

And that's precisely what I hate about the new content.
It's not giving new options, it's forcing new options through NPCs.

You could make the same argument about strongholds, though - how non-mages can't do the bit with the Sphere apprentices and non-bards can't do the Playhouse, etc. Or those quests/encounters that only trigger with specific NPCs in your party (Korgan, Jan, Jaheira, etc.) You can never do 100% of the content with the same party in one playthrough; the only difference is that the EE characters' quests happen to include new areas. But those are still, first and foremost, character quests - as you yourself pointed out, it's a bit difficult to justify going to Resurrection Gorge without Dorn.

Aranthys said:

The main reason why you like a character is usually not just his quest :

True, but again, this is a very old game and everyone already has their favorites. If you didn't have a specific reason for including Dorn, Neera, Rasaad or Hexxat, how would you know whether any of the factors you specified would appeal to you?

Aranthys

shawne said:

You could make the same argument about strongholds, though - how non-mages can't do the bit with the Sphere apprentices and non-bards can't do the Playhouse, etc. Or those quests/encounters that only trigger with specific NPCs in your party (Korgan, Jan, Jaheira, etc.) You can never do 100% of the content with the same party in one playthrough; the only difference is that the EE characters' quests happen to include new areas. But those are still, first and foremost, character quests - as you yourself pointed out, it's a bit difficult to justify going to Resurrection Gorge without Dorn.

Aye, but from a design philosophy, you get :
- CHARNAME has a dedicated quest in the stronghold, depending on class
- CHARNAME can access any "big quest" regardless of the NPCs
- CHARNAME can recruit any NPCs, each NPC opening banters, reactions, possible romance and personal quests

The design philosophy of BG2:EE was :
- CHARNAME recruit a NPC. That NPC has issues. You help him resolve issues, thus developping his character and helping him make big choices and achieve his goal.
> Rasaad staying as the leader and leaving the group
> Dorn losing a patron and becoming useless ( )
> Hexxat turning to dust
> Neera : Dunno, haven't done her ToB quest yet.

The "NPC" character development in Vanilla was much less important, the focus was on your own quest and your own agenda. NPCs were tied to your destiny : This new content switches that around.

shawne said:

True, but again, this is a very old game and everyone already has their favorites. If you didn't have a specific reason for including Dorn, Neera, Rasaad or Hexxat, how would you know whether any of the factors you specified would appeal to you?

Simply in order to discover a new character, its interactions, banters and romance ?
I mean, it's like older characters : I've completed the game at least once with each character just for the sake of experiencing it.

If you HAVE to tie content to a NPC to make that NPC appealing, that means you've failed at making that NPC appealing in the first place, don't you think ?

Eudaemonium

Speaking solely in terms of SoA, I actually don't see why you need to have Rasaad or Neera for their content at all. I think Dorn and Hexxat are more difficult to justify as is (Dorn especially), but Neera and Rasaad's content could quite *easily* be re-jigged to not require them. Heck, as it is you can do the vast majority of Neera's SoA stuff without her even being on your party (The forest area and all the side-quests in the camp, though you need to briefly add her in order to gain access to said camp). Rasaad's would work fine provided you were given a quest to investigate the Two-Fold Trust. Heck, having Rasaad himself as the questgiver, ala Nalia, would work completely fine. I actually think even just this would be a good move (leaving Dorn and Hexxat as is), because at least in SoA Rasaad and Neera have the vast majority of RP opportunities and loot variety. I mean seriously, what would you need to change on Rasaad's or Neera's SoA quests other than (obviously) cutting their dialogue. Spoilers, obviously.

Rasaad: Have a questgiver/informant give you location of Amphitheatre. Change some dialogue with the Master of Arms and Alorgoth at the end.

The entire infiltration of the Temple and pretty much every other conversation can be mostly left alone.

Neera: Make it so you can access the camp without her in the party (i.e. just have the scene fire when you enter the area). Make it so you can recruit/save Daxus without her with you (seriously). When you return to the camp have Neera there with Telana, you gain the location of the Enclave and pretty much everything other than the conversation with Lannath plays out exactly the same.

Dorn's is more difficult because his quest relates very specifically to him, and I'm not sure how it would work without him without some rather heavy re-jigging. Hexxat's quests in SoA are just incredibly boring, aside from Dragomir's Tomb for spoiler twist purposes. I'm honestly not entirely sure why anybody would even want to do them without her.

Aranthys

What pains me is that I know very well that this "re-jigging" will never happen, kinda like it never happened in BG:EE. I guess it'll be done through modding someday.

Eudaemonium

Well, yeah. It was clearly a design decision. Albeit one I find rather irritating. Hopefully mods will be made in the future to at least open up Rasaad and Neera's.

element

i agree its unfortunate that the new quests require the npc it makes the game much less fluid imo as you have to switch in npcs as needed as opposed to what feels right. The approach of the new content is more similar to mass effect 2 then it is baldurs gate.

not to mention it puts you in an awkward situation were if you don't like an npc you either don't do the content or you just have to put up with it

TvrtkoSvrdlar

What pisses me most about the EEs is how bad the VO work was done. It's really distracting and immersion-breaking when you have to kill the sound because the VO is of such poor quality that it instantly makes you think "Oh wow, this was done by some guy in a basement on a $5 microphone!". Even worse is that not all of it is like this (Baeloth is amazing, both as a partymember, and antagonist), which begs the question of just what the hell happened. Did they run out of VO funds half-way through, or what?

That, and what's already been said in this thread; namely, slaving the new content to NPCs.

Overall, I'd say the EEs were successful (optimization, bug patching, etc.), but there's room for a LOT of improvement!

EDIT: Forgot to add that, yes, was expecting a monk stronghold. Much disappointment was had

mjs

Aranthys said:

There's only one exception, it's the planar sphere, and even then, you're given an option to do it alone by just killing that darn ranger.

or you could kick another NPC to meet you at the copper coronet, take valygar to the sphere to open the door. kick valygar and re-recruit the previously booted NPC

i think valygar prefers it that way...

[Deleted User]

@Aranthys I guess it depends on how you define "big quest." You can do the Umar Hills without Mazzy, but Jaheira, Anomen, and Edwin all have multi-stage quests that require their presence in the party in order to complete, so I don't think it's accurate to say that in the original BG2 you could access any "big quest" regardless of your party.

I can understand the disappointment with having to take the new people along for this content, but I can also understand the decision they made. For one, it means that the DLC (for devices that don't have it included) is not just a new hanger-on, but quest content as well. For another, it means that those people who want something as close to the original experience as possible, albeit with a better UI and bugfixes, can simply avoid the new NPCs in order to get that.

Arcanis

Yaay, my first comment ^_^
@Kaigen and @Aranthys I think making the new content part of their new npc's is part of the contract. I remember that the devs said at some Point that they are only allowed to add content related to their new characters. So every new Area (and dialog) has to be related to the npc's to be within the contract of not changing the core game.

But I have to admit that I wish they would make the twofold Temple into the monk stronghold (along a twofold monk kit please =P)

Have a nice day

smeagolheart

Trent Oster said they designed their new areas like this on purpose for a reason. The reason is not to irritate us even if that seems to be the ultimate effect on us when we realize we are forced to take along character x to see the new areas.

The reason given was beamdog was restricted from altering the game but for very specific circumstances such as adding new content. So they added an NPC that led to the new areas.

Official explanation on this design choice:
https://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/18052/enhanced-edition-characters-and-content

tl:dr "character areas" allows Beamdog to clearly separate new content for contractual reasons

kamuizin

??? Adding new content isn't forbidden in the assignments of rights, change the old content is @Smealgolheart! Add new content can be add a new NPC, a new area, new quest...