Pure Mage Questions..

Eldrane

Hi all, I'd like to try running through 1&2 as a pure Mage..
Any strong reasons why that's a bad idea ?
I'd also like to see all the conversation/story dialogue, governed by charisma?
For weapon I'd like to concentrate on ranged..

What stats/abilities numbers should I aim for?

What Skills to pick..

If I was pure Mage any advice on best other party members?
I'd like them to be strong with ranged weapons

Any help appreciated before I set off :-)

Eldrane

Oops and what's the best "Race" for Mage? Thanks

FinneousPJ

Without a kit it's a bad idea, but a pure mage is the only way to play a Wild Mage which are brilliant...

Silverstar

Pure mage is not a bad idea. Personally I prefer Sorcerer these days but I really enjoyed Mage back before Sorcerer was available. The specialist mages tend to lock some of your stats higher though and gives additional spell castings per day but they also lock you out of some of the other spell schools which can be annoying.

Having a high charisma won't neccessarily give more dialogue (far as I know) but it will give different dialogue based on the NPCs' "reaction" which is modified by reputation and charisma score. This can change rewards you get; for instance in Candlekeep the guy that wants crossbow bolts may give you a magical dagger instead of gold and Hull might increase how much he gives you. Having a high charisma on party leader (usually yourself) will make the others suffer morale failure much less and it will prevent some companions from fighting amongst themselves longer, but not infinitely.

You'll want your Intelligence stat as high as possible as it increases the amount of spell casting you get per day, the amount of spells you can learn per level and the chance of successfully learning spells. Note that drinking an intelligence-boosting potion will temporarily raise your max number of learnable spells and chance to learn them above your actual cap. High Dexterity and Constitution is also recommended; Dexterity for armour class and ranged attacks and Constitution for hit points and saving throws. Note that there's no point in having Constitution higher than 16 for mages.

For weapon proficiencies I'd recommend Quarterstaff and Sling.

FinneousPJ

Intelligence does not grant more spell castings.

Brude

The "best" race for a Mage is probably Gnome because they can get a 19 INT right from the start, but you must be an Illusionist. IIRC, Gnomes are the only race that can multi class into a Specialty school. Their opposing school is Necromancy. As a side benefit, you also get better savings throws as a shorty.

But: INT has neglible value. You can still cast all the spells in the game with a low score. Benefits outlined here:

http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Races_and_Stats#Intelligence

@Silverstar INT has no effect on the number of spells you can cast per day. It's the same for all Mages:

http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Mage

Pantalion

Wild Mage would be my pure mage of choice, but Conjurers are still a strong choice (and sorcerers are munchkin deviants! Deviants I say!). Honestly there's no real point to being a non-specialist mage unless you're dualling into it from something sturdier.

But yeah, Strength C Dexterity A, Con 15, Intelligence 18, Wisdom 15, Charisma B, with A B & C being your priorities for whatever points you have left after getting your minimum stats.

After Toming, you'll have 16 Con, 19 Int, 18 Wis, which translates to the maximum spells knowable per level, the wisdom to Wish, and the Con for maximum benefit (though if you end up with an 18 Con you can wear the claw of Kazagoth or whatever with no penalties).

For race, never be human unless you're dual classing, never be a gnome unless you're happy being an illusionist (at which point being multiclassed is just great, since Gnomes are the only multiclass specialists), never be a half-elf unless you're being some abnormal multiclass, and never be anything with an Intelligence penalty.

That pretty much leaves Elf as the best overall choice, 90% immunity to hold and charm spells will serve you well, as will the extra Dex for ranged attacks (every little helps for pure mages).

Mike

I am gonna side with @Brude on this one. I think the Gnome Illusionist is pretty much it for pure mage. They get -2 bonus to Wand and Spell saving throws with additional Constitution-based bonuses. Stick a * in slings and grab the boots of speed asap. Invisibility & speed in BG1, especially, will be your best friends. Sleep and blindness spells will knock out most enemies in BG1 but fail pretty miserably in BG2, however being a pure Mage you can always take them for BG1 and remove them to make room for better spells in BG2.

Mitchfork

Gnomes are fine and 19 INT is great... but every race (except Half-Orcs which cannot be Mages) can reach 19 INT by the end of Baldur's Gate with the Tome of Clear Thought. 19 INT is also the highest you really need to go, since that's the first stat threshold that you get unlimited spell scribes per spell level. Increasing it beyond that just very slightly increases your chance to memorize scrolls (95% to 96%). From a meta-gamey perspective starting a PC off with 19 INT is overkill.

Gnomes do get shorty throws which are great, and they're the only class that can multi-class a Specialist... but if you want a pure mage you have a lot more options choosing a different race that has access to the spell school you want.

nano

It's really too bad you can't make halfling mages...

the_spyder

Just a few points from someone who only ever plays a pure mage as Charname.

1. Plain and unkitted mages are not a bad idea. At lower levels, you will have to rely more upon your companions than at higher levels, but once you hit those higher levels, you will be more than powerful enough.

2. While it is true that INT doesn't give you more spells, having a High INT is of value. (a) what are you really going to spend your points on anyway, (b) your chance of spell failure is tied to your INT, as is the number of spells you can memorize. Now, granted you can simply down a potion of INT to accomplish this, but again, what are you really going to put your STAT points into anyway. Plus, from a Role playing standpoint, it is the stat of choice. Oh, and HLA are dependent on having an 18 INT, so that pretty much kills the "Int is a dump stat for wizards" argument.

3. My Charname routinely has STAT totals in the low 70s and with no ill effects. INT and DEX are my highest. Next, I make sure I have a 15 CON (you get a +1 CON tome in BG1 and anything beyond 16 is useless for a wizard). STR is OK, but really anything above 12 is for carrying purposes only and you can do that with other party members. Since you want to max out Charisma, that would be where the rest goes. WIS is OK as well for WISH spells but that seems (to me) to be a HUGE investment for something that won't impact until very late in the game and can be simulated by potions.

4. Your ranged weapon of choice should be sling. It isn't a great weapon, but that way you aren't constantly reloading weapons (darts run out quickly), you can eventually get unlimited + sling bullets and it is a blunt weapon for the purposes of damaging skeletons and the like.

5. I go humans, but there really aren't much advantages to go anything else. It isn't like 3E where Sun Elves get bonus to INT. Gnomes are pretty cool illusionists and even better Illusionist Thieves, but you also get Jan in BG2, so that may double you up.

Just some advice, you aren't going to be front line tank unless you do Fighter/Wizard. This isn't a bad thing and doesn't mean you aren't contributing. There are many, many, MANY battles where the inclusion of a Wizard really tips the balance. Have fun with it.

FinneousPJ

@the_spyder

Plain, unkitted mages are a bad idea because when compared to kitted mages or sorcerers they have no advantages.

the_spyder

@FinneousPJ - Except that they aren't restricted in schools.

Edwin is considered one of the most powerful wizards in the game; yet he can't cast Identify, one of the most quintessential spells in BG1. That to me is a HUGE disadvantage.

And no, it isn't a BAD idea. May not be the BEST idea in the game, but 'bad' connotates that there is some disadvantage. Honestly, you are playing a Party. By mid BG1 in a full party and with all of the scrolls and wands that you can find, you won't miss the extra 1 spell per level. And you might benefit from that missing school of magic that you can't cast.

I'd even go so far as to say that unkitted mages are superior to kitted mages because the kitted mages simply don't give you enough benefit for what you give up.

Pecca

It comes down to role-playing your character. Specialists are so inadequately implemented, that I usually role-play them, memorizing most of spells from their respective school, even if I don't have to. Playing pure mage makes sense if you want to role-play him. From powergaming perspective, conjurer is way better, as he gains extra spells and only loose 10 divination spells in the entire series.

the_spyder

Pecca said:

It comes down to role-playing your character. Specialists are so inadequately implemented, that I usually role-play them, memorizing most of spells from their respective school, even if I don't have to. Playing pure mage makes sense if you want to role-play him. From powergaming perspective, conjurer is way better, as he gains extra spells and only loose 10 divination spells in the entire series.

One of which is Identify. In my current play through, I had Edwin for a long while. I ended up spending around 20K in getting magic items identified (including arrows and the like) and I really only had him for a short while before I switched up for Baeloth. I don't diss Edwin and think he is AWESOME, but the lack of Identify hurts a LOT in BG1.

It's an age old argument. Truthfully, there are arguments on both sides of the fence (much like Wizard versus Sorcerer). considering how vehemently people argue both sides, I think that really speaks to how actually balanced the two are. I have played both and prefer vanilla mages myself.

Brude

the_spyder said:

so that pretty much kills the "Int is a dump stat for wizards" argument.

Just to clarify: Nobody was actually making this argument, or came close to making it.

the_spyder said:

Edwin is considered one of the most powerful wizards in the game; yet he can't cast Identify, one of the most quintessential spells in BG1. That to me is a HUGE disadvantage.

Huge? Identify is a convenience at best, duplicated by other classes and game mechanics.

Edwin is popular because his amulet gives him extra slots. It's not possible to make a PC Mage with as much raw potential.

I'd even go so far as to say that unkitted mages are superior to kitted mages because the kitted mages simply don't give you enough benefit for what you give up.

Given that some schools aren't powerful, you don't give up much. IIRC, you can still cast spells from opposing schools via scroll and wand (or was that vanilla BG?). Either way, it's not a big sacrifice for 8-9 spell slots across the entire game.

Pecca

the_spyder said:

Pecca said:

It comes down to role-playing your character. Specialists are so inadequately implemented, that I usually role-play them, memorizing most of spells from their respective school, even if I don't have to. Playing pure mage makes sense if you want to role-play him. From powergaming perspective, conjurer is way better, as he gains extra spells and only loose 10 divination spells in the entire series.

One of which is Identify. In my current play through, I had Edwin for a long while. I ended up spending around 20K in getting magic items identified (including arrows and the like) and I really only had him for a short while before I switched up for Baeloth. I don't diss Edwin and think he is AWESOME, but the lack of Identify hurts a LOT in BG1.

It's an age old argument. Truthfully, there are arguments on both sides of the fence (much like Wizard versus Sorcerer). considering how vehemently people argue both sides, I think that really speaks to how actually balanced the two are. I have played both and prefer vanilla mages myself.

I can live well without identify, although I usually have more that one mage so they cover all spells. But yeah, it doesn't really matter. They are all fun.

Thrasymachus

Brude said:

But: INT has neglible value.

I disagree. With a 19 INT there is no limit to the number of spells you can scribe (i.e., unlimited level 1 spells, unlimited level 2 spells, etc.). With a lower INT, there is a limit, which can become frustrating.

EDIT: Yes, this limit can be overcome temporarily with potions, but that is a pain IMO. Better simply to max out INT for a mage.

Thrasymachus

the_spyder said:

Oh, and HLA are dependent on having an 18 INT...

Actually, I don't think that this is the case. HLA spells do not require 18+ INT, as they are not 'scribed'.

Still, I would recommend maxing out INT for a mage, both for RP'ing reasons, and to have unlimited spells per level. (Yes, you can accomplish that with potions as well, but it's a pain and too meta-gamey for my tastes.)

Mitchfork

Brude said:

Given that some schools aren't powerful, you don't give up much. IIRC, you can still cast spells from opposing schools via scroll and wand (or was that vanilla BG?). Either way, it's not a big sacrifice for 8-9 spell slots across the entire game.

You might be able to cast opposing school wands but you definitely can't cast from opposing school scrolls.

the_spyder said:

2. While it is true that INT doesn't give you more spells, having a High INT is of value. (a) what are you really going to spend your points on anyway, (b) your chance of spell failure is tied to your INT, as is the number of spells you can memorize. Now, granted you can simply down a potion of INT to accomplish this, but again, what are you really going to put your STAT points into anyway. Plus, from a Role playing standpoint, it is the stat of choice. Oh, and HLA are dependent on having an 18 INT, so that pretty much kills the "Int is a dump stat for wizards" argument.

HLA's can actually be taken regardless of intelligence, even if you couldn't otherwise memorize level 9 spells.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying INT was a dump stat, it's just not really advantageous to pump it to 19 at character creation. 18 is plenty.

Implementation of Specialists should have been more balanced... in PnP you get an extra spell slot but you must use it on a spell of your chosen school. This would make the choice of Specialist more about "Is this school powerful?" instead of "Is my opposing school weak?"

Thrasymachus

For a single-class mage, I would recommend either illusionists or conjurors. Wild mages are fun as well, and have the advantage of no prohibited schools, but (obviously) are unpredictable.

Brude

Thrasymachus said:

Brude said:

But: INT has neglible value.

I disagree. With a 19 INT there is no limit to the number of spells you can scribe (i.e., unlimited level 1 spells, unlimited level 2 spells, etc.). With a lower INT, there is a limit, which can become frustrating.

EDIT: Yes, this limit can be overcome temporarily with potions, but that is a pain IMO. Better simply to max out INT for a mage.

It's limiting but it doesn't break the character's performance (Unlike, say, a Fighter with 13 STR, or a thief with 14 DEX).

I realized this when I once tried to play Garrick as a serious spellcaster. There really are enough slots to get your bases covered (that is, really, the core concept behind Sorcerers).

I agree it's not ideal, but it's also not the end of the world. Magic Missiles from a character with 15 INT and Magic Missiles from a character with 19 INT do the same thing. So it goes with every other spell in the game.

@the_spyder: You spent 20K identifying items? Dude. C'mon. That's 200 separate identifications at temples. I'm not sure there are that many magical items in the first game. Were you paying to identify each arrow one by one?

Thrasymachus

Brude said:

It's limiting but it doesn't break the character's performance (Unlike, say, a Fighter with 13 STR, or a thief with 14 DEX).

A fighter with 13 STR can obtain gauntlets or a belt that will overcome this deficiency. Likewise a thief with 14 DEX can obtain gauntlets. And potions are available to boost both stats.

So if we're talking about low stats that can be overcome with potions or items, then the cases are somewhat analogous.

And just as I'd prefer to have a fighter with 18+ STR, or a thief with 18+ DEX, I think it's sensible to aim at a mage with 18+ INT.

Plus, something about a mage with a mediocre INT casting level 9 spells just rubs me the wrong way...

HandofTyr

Having to pay to ID items is a pain, but you get massive amounts of gold soon enough. Still, it will delay you getting your robes of the archmage, shadow armor, or whatever.

Mitchfork said:

Implementation of Specialists should have been more balanced... in PnP you get an extra spell slot but you must use it on a spell of your chosen school. This would make the choice of Specialist more about "Is this school powerful?" instead of "Is my opposing school weak?"

This has been discussed before, but there are a few things from PnP they didn't implement. One of the biggest disadvantages is that most specialists (all? the PHB is unclear) lose multiple schools. Illusionist, for example, loses necromancy, evocation, and abjuration. That would have made it a much harder choice. Also a conjurer would only lose access to divination spells higher than level 4 (but also a couple of other schools that I don't remember), as lower level divinations were considered critical to wizardy-ness for some reason.

the_spyder

@Brude - You'd be surprised at the number of 'Vendor trash' magic items there are in the game, including but not limited to the endless +1 swords, daggers, leather armors, scrolls, wands, and missiles. No, i didn't identify per arrow, but if I did, that would be orders of magnitude over 200. You can probably get 100 fire arrows from the Nashkal mines alone (not really, but you get the point).

@Mitchfork - how exactly can you cast a HLA if your INT isn't 18? I ask because I haven't gotten that far in EE and I am curious. There is another thread complaining about Aerie's inability to cast mage HLAs because her INT isn't 18. Or maybe this has since been fixed?

Mitchfork

The game just lets you pick as long as you are at the appropriate level for learning level 9 spells and HLA's (level 18 for Mage/Sorcerer). AFAIK you get the spell slots regardless of your intelligence, you just can't scribe.

I mean, Aerie would be severely nerfed if they didn't allow this since you wouldn't be able to ever get Mage HLA's even with the Lum Machine boost in Throne of Bhaal.

EDIT: The reason for the Aerie complaints is that Aerie gets access to HLA's before she hits level 18 as a Mage, and the game won't let you pick an HLA if you're not the appropriate level to cast it.

Brude

@Thrasymachus I wasn't really addressing gear or potions. The difference with your example is that the low INT Mage doesn't need gear to be just as effective, whereas the melee fighters do. Worse, the melee guys require permanent boosts from gear. (really, I'm just playing devil's advocate at this point; it's argumentative for me to point this out).

@the_spyder I'm at a loss then. That low level vendor trash can be identified by thieves and mages. In a pinch, you can use a scroll (it's not like they're rare). In any case, you didn't lose 20k on identifies, because you sold that trash and most probably made money on all of it. This is also argumentative on my part, but I'm just not seeing a "huge" disadvantage in Edwin for lacking this one spell, especially considering all his other bonuses.

nano

Mitchfork said:

I mean, Aerie would be severely nerfed if they didn't allow this since you wouldn't be able to ever get Mage HLA's even with the Lum Machine boost in Throne of Bhaal.

There's also the Golden Ioun Stone that will let Aers get permanent 18 int when combined with the machine.

Mitchfork

nano said:

Mitchfork said:

I mean, Aerie would be severely nerfed if they didn't allow this since you wouldn't be able to ever get Mage HLA's even with the Lum Machine boost in Throne of Bhaal.

There's also the Golden Ioun Stone that will let Aers get permanent 18 int when combined with the machine.

Good catch, forgot about that.

Eldrane

Ok thanks for all the help going for Gnome Illusionist
10 16 15 19 12 18
Will that work?
WDYT?

the_spyder

@Brude - Edwin can't use identification scrolls, at least not in EE (is this a bug??? because they were 'red' out in his inventory).

My party consists of:

Charname Half Orc Fighter/Thief
Viconia
Dorn
Shar-Teel (dualled to thief)
Baeloth (formerly Edwin)
Tiax (formerly Kagain)

The character with the highest lore in that group was Viconia, who beat out Edwin by 1 point as of 6th level (Eddie was only 5th) prior to picking up Baeloth. She couldn't even identify Fire arrows.

And sure, you recoup some of the money. But then my statement was that I "spent" the money, not that I "Lost" the money. And it is a real PITA not being able to identify items mid-adventure.

I'm not saying Edwin isn't a real gem. I really like him a lot. Just saying that he does come with a price and the lack of that one single spell at low levels is not insignificant. Since I was also battling a low rep as well, money at early levels really became a problem.

Granted, i could have picked up Eldoth and solved the problem, but that "To me" is a handicap, in that I needed to have a party member not of my choosing merely to accommodate another party member's deficiency.

Ultimately, the loss of that single spell did have significant impact. And given that Specialist mages were only implemented with 1 extra spell per level, and not the other stuff that they were meant to have, that single significant lack can make specialist mages not worth the price.