EE: Enhance the Bard
Quartz
Member Posts: 3,853
This subject has come up on occasion but I don't believe I've ever seen anyone make a thread dedicated to it.
In tabletop Dungeons and Dragons Bards are treated as a sort of pseudo-rogue. Baldur's Gate never did this. They just gave us pickpocketing and called it good. To BioWare's credit, the Rogue HLAs including trap setting in Throne of Bhaal was certainly a step in the right direction ... if a rather late one.
Now don't get me wrong, Bards are useful in this game. Absolutely, I love 'em. They certainly have some interesting advantages, such as their very fast level progression. However, it's worth pointing out that many people go around as a Fighter/Mage or even Fighter/Mage/Thief instead and call it a better class. While they're not 100% correct, solid arguments can be made in favor of playing multi-classes instead of Bards.
This game isn't all that challenging once you master its somewhat steep learning curve, so I'm not suggesting that all classes need to be equally as good as other classes or anything. This isn't about balancing the Bard with other classes. This is about the Bard actually fulfilling its role.
I'm not sure how exactly Beamdog could go about making the Bard fulfill its role better, but let's be honest, their thieving side is incredibly lacking. You get ... pick pocketing, and that's it. Really? Not even Stealth? Calling the Bard any sort of Rogue really is pretty much a joke.
I suppose my personal solution for it would be to give Bards all the Thieving abilities, but only allow them 15% distribution per level or something.
...
But how about the rest of you all, let us know what you think?
In tabletop Dungeons and Dragons Bards are treated as a sort of pseudo-rogue. Baldur's Gate never did this. They just gave us pickpocketing and called it good. To BioWare's credit, the Rogue HLAs including trap setting in Throne of Bhaal was certainly a step in the right direction ... if a rather late one.
Now don't get me wrong, Bards are useful in this game. Absolutely, I love 'em. They certainly have some interesting advantages, such as their very fast level progression. However, it's worth pointing out that many people go around as a Fighter/Mage or even Fighter/Mage/Thief instead and call it a better class. While they're not 100% correct, solid arguments can be made in favor of playing multi-classes instead of Bards.
This game isn't all that challenging once you master its somewhat steep learning curve, so I'm not suggesting that all classes need to be equally as good as other classes or anything. This isn't about balancing the Bard with other classes. This is about the Bard actually fulfilling its role.
I'm not sure how exactly Beamdog could go about making the Bard fulfill its role better, but let's be honest, their thieving side is incredibly lacking. You get ... pick pocketing, and that's it. Really? Not even Stealth? Calling the Bard any sort of Rogue really is pretty much a joke.
I suppose my personal solution for it would be to give Bards all the Thieving abilities, but only allow them 15% distribution per level or something.
...
But how about the rest of you all, let us know what you think?
2
Comments
One of the big differences for the 3rd edition bard is that his song lasts a number of rounds beyond being sung, according to level and feat selection, allowing him to take other actions after singing. His song improves with levels and skill, and he can make choices about which songs to learn. He has his own spell list, casts innately as a sorcerer, instead of scribing mage spells, and his spell repertoire focuses on illusion, charm, healing, and buffing.
Icewind Dale's implementation of the bard was a step in this direction, and @CamDawg has written a mod that attempts to at least enhance the EE bard up to IWD standards. ("Icewindification", which also adds in IWD mage, cleric, and druid spells.)
The way I can imagine that the infinity engine could handle a better bard, would be to make his spells cast from the same programming mechanism as either divine or sorcerer spells. There is a mod for clerics over at SHS that attempts to do this through a "chanticleer" kit, and a bard mod that attempts to add a "chorister" kit, both of which manipulate the cleric spell lists and casting mechanism.
We know from using the Keeper programs that all three spell lists (mage, sorcerer, divine) can be meticulously and specifically designed and tweaked, and there are many more spell effects in the program than appear in the official spell books for players.
The bard songs can probably also be redone as spells, rather than as a special thief skill button which must remain active to take effect, and prevents the bard from taking any other actions.
I wonder if it is possible to create a character who has d6 hit dice and rogue progression thac0, but also has access to a specially designed divine spell casting progression (or sorcerer casting progression)? I know from those mods I mentioned that the engine can put any arcane spell onto a divine casting table. I don't know if the engine can put divine spells onto a sorcerer casting table, though, which would be ideal.
I think that bards are a totally different kind of "rogue" from "thieves", and serve completely different functions in parties. They are both "rogues" only in the very broadest sense of the word, implying a certain roleplaying personality.
The thief is a critical class character, with a main party role skillset, while the bard is a support class. The bard's main job is buffing, especially in the party morale area, practically implemented through dice roll bonuses granted and anti-disabling protection. The bard also serves as emergency backup for the mage and the cleric, often having access to certain important spells which, if the mage or cleric were incapacitated and unable to cast, could cause a party wipe. Or, the bard can provide coverage for those spells and other healing and buffing spells, freeing the mage's or cleric's spell slots for more offensive spells.
The bard class is much more magic-based than the thief class, and I don't think they should get any thief skills at all. Bards spend their time reading and memorizing lore, poetry, songs, juggling, theatrical roles, practicing musical instruments, telling jokes and stories, entertaining, studying magic (but not too seriously), and avoiding any real work whenever possible.
The thief practices taking and stealing what he needs, in secret and in shadows, while the bard practices charming, delighting, swindling, or entertaining you into giving it to him voluntarily. (That's only my opinion.)
I don't expect the EE devs to ever do any of this, because they've probably got much higher priority issues to worry about, but, this could maybe be a good modding project, if someone with the knowledge and time reads the ideas here, and decides to take a shot at it.
Reason I ask is, BG2 seemed to have a thing about giving each class three kits. Design wise, this wound up as two playable subclasses, with a third class everybody makes fun of (Jesters, Wizard Hunters, Beast Masters, Bounty Hunters, etc).
From a CPRG perspective, I would have preferred just two Bard kits: melee and casting. And to borrow from belgarathmth's post, each of them would learn new songs at different levels. Functionally, those songs would just be spells in the Bard's spell book similar to Reckless Whatever for Wild Mages.
Also: The Golden Pantaloons should have been a Bard Specific item with a special bonus that only appeared after you equipped them ... In your helm slot.
More on topic, I agree that bards should get song varieties. Easiest way to implement it as stands is probably through HLAs, though that means it won't be in effect until later game. Honestly, they really shouldn't get the high level traps at all, and that's really not a bard thing, but too late now.
Also, it doesn't solve the problem of having to continue to sing to the exclusion of all other actions, so there's no equivalent of Lingering Song. It still doesn't give any thief skills other than Pick Pocket to bards, either, as @Quartz wants.
EDIT: I checked again, and RR does provide Lingering Song as a high-level ability. I would prefer that it be available as a spell much sooner, because the Song is the bread and butter of all bards and I don't think the player should have to choose between singing forever, or casting and using his weapons.
If the RR ability actually works, (I haven't checked to confirm that it does), then that means that the bard song can already be programmed to last any number of rounds.
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Bard
In NWN2, Bards had a variety of "auras", essentially bard songs that you don't need to maintain, ranging from bonus to hit/damage, skill rolls, AC, Saving Throws and even Regeneration, on top of limited use (though 1 use per level is quite generous) spells with other effects, such as counterspelling, damage resistance and so on.
They also could specialise into Curse Song, an AOE debuff song (using one of their 1 song/day uses) with brutal debuffs that got worse the better a performer the bard was, up to actually causing nearly irresistable, if low, damage to all enemies in range, whilst they still had an array of healing, buffing and other support spells available to them.
The Bard in NWN2 was a powerful Leader-type character, which could easily adjust their bonuses to whatever the party (or they themselves) needed, using only one round to do so, rather than doing nothing but sing - the opposite approach to BG.
Applying this backwards, BG could pick up at least a few things.
1: Overhaul their spell list.
Bardic magic going the way of the sorcerer, but limited to Illusion, Evocation, Enchantment/Charm, Conjuration and Alteration.
2/1 spells per day/known up to 5/4 in all six spell levels, gained at the same rate they do now.
No longer would every bard need to be a super genius, so they could actually just focus on being pretty, which is much more in keeping with what Bards should be up to, and whilst four spells limits them, five casts of any of those four spells is a very viable tradeoff I'd say.
And of course, Bards can still use scrolls without any restrictions.
2: Make their songs last.
An AOE remove fear, buff or confusion effect is pretty awesome. By making them last for five rounds after the bard stops singing, they can actually participate in combat.
3: Give them more songs to use at higher levels.
I'm not talking 3,000,000 Exp here, but at level 5, 10, 15 et cetera, they get an extra song type, and an extra song in their song-pool every ten levels (starting at 1 special song/day at level 1, with one song type). These songs have a "cast time" of 1 round, and last for a Turn.
Courage - +1 to Hit and Damage per 5 levels of the Bard.
Safety - -1 to AC per 10 levels of the Bard.
Recovery - Regenerate 1 HP per 5 bard levels / round.
Frenzy - +1 Attack / round per 20 levels of the Bard.
Resilience - 5% damage resistance per 5 levels of Bard.
With up to five songs per day, they're potentially very powerful (and could very easily combine with HLA songs - replacing HLA Traps - going out of the same pool, song based Summon Planetar anyone?) and doing something very much in the Bard's remit - playing music and inspiring people.
These songs would be freely combinable with the Bard's "core" song.
These three things make Bards dangerous, both for the AI and the player, versatile, gives them a unique mechanic (built upon their unique mechanic, no less), and lets them do things in combat whilst still contributing those unique abilities, which keeps them appropriately distinct from the Thief class, and the Fighter/Mage/Thief which they so poorly emulate at present. I'm pretty sure it's also easier to implement, Sorcerer-type casting aside, than messing around giving them additional core class features.
For example if you were an Actor by trade, you would add your acting skill to Bluff and Diplomacy.
If you were a Dancer you would add your dancing modifier to Tumble and Acrobatics
and so on.
I found this to be really fun. My bard would concentrate on being the face of the party, buffing and doing cool things like using feather fall or distracting enemies. It was actually diverse without having too many thief traits, but still a couple, which is what a bard should be.
Give them a stacking debuff maybe, or a song that gets harder and harder to resist with each round. Mages can ensnare you with a word and a glance but music is more subtle, pounding on your mind and breaking you down until it's all but irresistible.
And I'm obsessed with debuffing (Slow is like the greatest spell ever!), so I like @nano 's post too ... ^^