Question about level 1 multi-class

Rapscallion

I was driving home yesterday thinking about how much I loved 2e multi-classing rules when I realised I'd forgotten something crucial about the system. Is a level 1 multi-classed hero always more powerful than a level 1 pure?

Take the example of a level 1 Fighter compared with a level 1 Fighter/Thief. IIRC when you multi-class, your XP gains are split equally between each class and they level up independently of each other. At the start of BG, a Fighter will have the effective power of a level 1 Fighter, whereas the other character will have the effective power of a level 1 Fighter combined with thieving skills/abilities?

Have I got this right?

Ulfgar_Torunn

You've got it very close to right: THAC0, theiving skills, proficiencies, saving throws and spells per day will all be at the most favorable values, but hitpoints suffer, having only the average value for the two classes.

All in all you're correct: a 1st level multiclass character is more powerful than a 1st level single classed character.

wariisop

Which sucks, because a level 1 dual class suffers compared to multi-class. I wish they would fix the dual class issue when it comes to the overbearing amount of experience required.

Tanthalas

I don't see the problem with dual-classing. It actually has plenty of its own advantages when compared to multi-classing.

Rapscallion

I've never much liked dual classing purely because it's much easier to mess it up. On the other hand, a multi-class is nearly always a simple and powerful levelling and endgame experience.

Off-topic slightly, but I really don't know what WoTC were thinking with the 3e, 3.5e and 4e multi-classing rules. I loved the 3e rules at the start, but by the end of 3.5e (with the limit of 3 classes removed), it just became a ridiculous flavour/lore-breaking cheesefest.

Thels

When you dual-class, you can actually choose to take only a few levels in one class, and then switch to the other class. It should be pretty easy to overcome the experience you've spent on the first class.

For example, if you take 6 levels in Rogue and then switch to another class, you are only 20.000 XP behind on picking the other class from the very start, but you do gain some thieving abilities. That 20.000 XP quickly becomes totally neglect-able.

When you multiclass, you know you will always only have half the XP in your current class than you would if you went singleclass.

Either way, I prefer the 3rd edition rules, where different classes actually stack, over combining the best values from different classes.

Thels

Rapscallion said:

Off-topic slightly, but I really don't know what WoTC were thinking with the 3e, 3.5e and 4e multi-classing rules. I loved the 3e rules at the start, but by the end of 3.5e (with the limit of 3 classes removed), it just became a ridiculous flavour/lore-breaking cheesefest.

Limit of 3 classes? I never heard of this limit.

Favored Class helps to reduce endless cheesing somewhat, and 3.5 modified the classes so they became less frontloaded, so you couldn't go for single level dips as much as 3.0.

Rapscallion

Thels said:

When you multiclass, you know you will always only have half the XP in your current class than you would if you went singleclass.

True but the XP curves were exponential (you were only one or two levels behind in each class) meaning your endgame multi-classed character was vastly more powerful than pures, and probably duals also.

Thels said:

Rapscallion said:

Off-topic slightly, but I really don't know what WoTC were thinking with the 3e, 3.5e and 4e multi-classing rules. I loved the 3e rules at the start, but by the end of 3.5e (with the limit of 3 classes removed), it just became a ridiculous flavour/lore-breaking cheesefest.

Limit of 3 classes? I never heard of this limit.

Favored Class helps to reduce endless cheesing somewhat, and 3.5 modified the classes so they became less frontloaded, so you couldn't go for single level dips as much as 3.0.

Ah the 3 class limit might have come from Neverwinter Nights confusing my memory.

IIRC 3.5 tried to control the oddities of multiclassing by introducing hundreds of prestige classes. These would offer some, but not all, abilities of pure classes such that your character wasn't granted abilities that you'd never use, or were out of flavour.

Spartacus

I really enjoyed the prestige classes of 3/3.5e. It always allowed me to make a plan for my character's development, and usually directed my choice of feats and skills somewhat.

I am sad to say that I never had the courage to create a dual/multi class character in Baldur's Gate, even having played it so many times. It always seems to me that having a higher level of 1 class will be beneficial... especially in the case of mages. I want those level 9 spells!

Majoca

@Spartacus

Ive never dared to play as a dual class, but Multiclass is quite fun, Fighter/Theif using backstabbing as your main attack can be deadly, or Illusionist/theif can be an anti mage, use backstabbing with dagger of venom, setting traps and using spells can even be a scout with invisibilty.

Spartacus

@Majoca

I have to admit, that does sound terribly enjoyable. For some reason I have a compulsion that if my character does something, he must be the absolute best at it! My last playthrough was an assassin kit, and I only ever put skill points in Hide in Shadows/Move Silently, so that eventually I was into the 300's thinking "this seems like overkill" hahaha. I may have to try the illusionist/thief this next time....

Majoca

@Spartacus

I completely understand the be the best attitude because I must admit level 9 spells too tempting haha, or missing out on great bonuses, however I tend to think of Multiclass as a class in itself, its a mixture, a theif will never cast conjure spells or have mirror image, and you can never fail sneak if your invisible, and a mage never gets to use short bows and I am not lying you know tomako, sarevoks lover at the end where she attacks you, I was using the shortsowrd of backstabbing (+3 stats) and I hit like 60 or something through backstab as I was invisible, used mirror image and killed her with a magic missle.

I think it was the best character I played because you become useful in multiple areas allowing great flexability in a party.

Awong124

I prefer dual class over multiclass because I end up with a more useful character. I usually don't want both classes to end up at close to the same level, I usually just want a few levels of one. But it is annoying during the time that you're stuck using the single classes.

Corvino

Duals can be very powerful, especially from some base kits. Berzerker, Kensai and swashbuckler spring to mind. 9 or 13 levels of Kensai set you up nicely for a transition to mage or thief giving you a nasty THAC0 & HP with AC bonuses. 10 levels of Swashbuckler dualed to mage gives you weapon choices, higher HP and some nice THAC0/AC bonuses in addition to about 3 maxed out thief skills - lots of versatility at minimal cost. Berzerker is another nice dual to thief, mage or cleric, with the immunities from Berzerk as well as figher THAC0 & HP.

The downside is always the downtime between dualling and getting your skills back. In BG2 this is a much quicker process though due to crazy XP all over the place. You can get half a dozen levels with a mage dual from copying scrolls alone.

Doom972

A level 1 multiclass is better that a level 1 pure in all aspects except health - while a fighter would have d10 health, a fighter mage would have (d10+d4)/2.

Dual class serves a completely different purpose. It allows you to get certain advantages of a class before you start leveling in your main class. For example: If you want to be a human mage, You can start as a fighter and get 6 levels in it, which would allow you to grand-mastery of a weapon type and give you a boost to your health. After that you can dual to mage and still get the maximum mage level possible in ToB. The only reason not to do this is for roleplaying purposes, as it has no other disadvantages.

Jolanthus

The worst part about playing a fighter/Mage is the armour restrictions. You have to get into the underdark before picking up some elven chain that allows you to cast in armour.