How should Free Action on items work?
rae
Member Posts: 35
- How should Free Action on items work?82 votes
- Free Action on Flail of Ages +5 shouldn't prevent haste but Ring of Free Action should prevent haste.14.63%
- Free Action on Flail of Ages +5 and Ring of Free Action shouldn't prevent haste.57.32%
- Free Action on Flail of Ages +5 and Ring of Free Action should prevent haste.28.05%
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On the other hand, Flail of Ages is too powerful a weapon if it allows haste. Ideally, I'd like both haste to be allowed on free action and the end-game weaponry to be rebalanced just a bit. It would annoy me if FoA was always the best choice no matter what. Right now, the fact that it prevents haste is the only thing keeping it from being incredibly overpowered. Heck it's still overpowered as it is.
The Potion of Freedom says that "the drinker becomes completely immune to any effects that influences action or movement."
The Ring of Free Action states that its immunity includes Haste and Slow spells (as well as anything that affects movement in any way).
Keldorn's Armor describes the Free Action it grants as "the ability to pass through Webs and other effects."
Spider's Bane doesn't state it has free action (though it gives that symbol) but it does state that it protects the wielder from "any magics that adversely affect movement, such as Web and Hold" (I think Arbane's Sword +2 also gives that symbol but in its case only protects against hold)
FoA +5/Ixil's Spike +6 just state "Free Action."
It really comes down to interpretation. Since the spell has always cancelled haste (unless you put items on or activate spells in the right order) I lean towards saying it should cancel haste. Then again how does it affect the movement increase given by the whirlwind abilities? Certainly doesn't make things straightforward
But I guess it's also because we overanalyze the game. Maybe the average player is not meant to be running Improved Haste constantly, in which case FoA+5 is an amazing weapon.
I'd be perfectly willing to nerf the damage from 2 elemental damage to 1 if it meant removing free action.
Whether the Flail of Ages +5 should have Free Action or not is up to debate, but if it does have the ability then it should at least be consistent and prevent Haste. I don't think it's particularly good game sense that a weapon gets a downside as a result of upgrading it, but it is what it is.
I know it's unlikely to change though since the Enhanced Edition isn't really supposed to drastically rebalance anything. I'm fine with that, but if we can discuss changes to Free Action, surely changes to items that have Free Action are just as valid.
They work too - at least in BGEE so far.
For me it makes for more interesting gameplay.
...i of course hesitated between 1 or 2 (the blue one)... but i finally decided for 1. might at least be a _compromise_ on that question, maybe ; the ring IS the only item/etc with FA that is clearly stating that it is affecting slow AND haste.. every other FA items/etc just simply imply to PROTECT from everything that 'impends' or 'hinders' or 'limits' movement or action (aka affect movement NEGATIVELY).. always... never talking explicitely about things that improve or boost movement too (aka affects movement POSITIVELY).. only things that reduce action and mobility..aka an help so, and not a reduction when you are using a speed boost. And that expecially makes sense when FA is directly implemented on key items.. like weapons (FoA+5 of course, but a few others too..if speed boosts forbidden by FA, then the weapon is totally killing one of the key fighter tricks; speeds..not the best premium gift..), but also armors (Keldorn armor of course..that in the original BG2 did NOT prevent any haste/IH spells or potions..just protecting him..). And, to be verified, but when searching quickly on that question recently (what is the original AD&D POV btw?, on that question..the real AD&D..the real FA paperbook definition..if someone has the original manuals, i would be very interested too..to be sure on that too..).. i alqo found some girdle in Icewindale that came with FA and.. Haste charges..here again, if that was so incompatible, would be a really poor choice of charges implementation with an innate FA item, i thought quickly..^
Anyway..the ring seems to be different too; the (even the original BG2 one..) decription is (at least) clear on that one : initial error in the description? OR simple wish to do a real unique item, there (and balance to gameplay/easiness to use FA at will with that one as such); aka, a ring, the easiest to use of every items (aka FA with just a switch..even in the middle of a fight, no armor/weapon to switch, no timing to wait with potion/spell, instantaneous..)... maybe the ring is simply a unique one, just removing the haste/speed for balance gameplay reason on that one.. _that_ i could understand too though..a unique ring, why not too..that may block the H/IH but only that truly unique and special item.. but all the other FA items/potions/spells would stay compatible with haste/IH... would be fine to me too..and a compromise at least..and respecting the ring unique detailed description too then..a very 'special gift' indeed then^.. with an unique usefulness/easiness to use, but also unique double edge effect for that one so.. ^
ok..to finish, what is sayng exactly the original AD&D about FA so? i tried to search some doc on that on the vast www, but no luck..someone having the paperbooks and able to look for the very first FA definition stricto sensu so (in the original paperboard versions so) ?.. tia..
ps;
the FA problem is even worst with the very specific Bard Blades class; Their really unique abilities (and all relative in the final game stages..).. are their Offensive/defensive Spins, that are all based on..movement modifiers (that's even the whole point with Blades 'bonuses'..^)..right now (EE v1.2.2030), FA do waste all the DS charges (totally wasting them..not possible to even launch a DS under a FA effect..and that can be for a very long time..at least, in the original BG2..you could launch DS with FA..even if then, that was weird too to see the movement lock removed..but that can be fixed too; we can allow FA+DS and keep the movement lock under DS if wished..just a commandline too under DLTCEP)..and of course, the speed boosts from OS are also affected as such (if FA considered stricto sensu like the ring evertyime so..).. hm.. no luck for the Blades with FA effect on them..a real double curse for them..as such..^
In these cases Free Action should have no effect, because these are non-magical abilities where the character is choosing to limit their movement in exchange for better defenses.
So stun effects and similiar should be prevented.
Why on earth it isn't allow to haste you, which doesn't hinder you in your FREE action in any way is beyond me.
Plus, in PnP AdnD, Free Action and Haste will function as well.
@Devs
What was your point then to change this behaviour from the classic one?
- Being under free action at level-up would permanently prevent monks and barbarians from receiving their innate speed increases
- Most forms of free action also included immunity to charm
- Arbane's Sword says immunity to hold, but was actually providing free action-ish protections
- Just about all free action items and spells let through some cosmetic side-effects that it actually protected against (strings like 'slow' and 'held', portrait icons for web or grease, etc.). Some were also outright missing protections against effects.
- Some forms of free action also included immunity to stun, which was confirmed by Gaider to be outside the scope of its protections
FoA +5, Ixil's Spike +6, RoFA and the spell all prevented haste in vBG2, there were simply easy exploits to work around it. This isn't something new or different. Keldorn's armor did not, but it was also wearable by monks and could have its free action dispelled, so let's just say it isn't the best example of a well-coded item.Now, defensive spin and free action should co-exist happily in EE, i.e. you should be able to enter DS while under free action, but still not be able to move. If this is not the current behavior, we'll get a fix in for it.
Also free action should protect vs maze and imprisonment. Hardly free to act when mazed are we?
I just think it is important to note, that 'free action' should not be a stopper for haste effects.
This is from a simple logical point of view, but also according to the PnP rules.
Imprisonment is a pretty powerful and high level spell. Mechanically free action is a shield vs a defined amount of effects (e.g. some hold effects like web) rather than vs a set of all imaginable effects. Otherwise this medium level spell would be too powerful just from a game-mechanical perspective.
I'd be glad though, if you could make free action + haste a possible interaction because of the reasons I mentioned earlier
It is no way a game stopper but I personally find it rather irritating, the way it works now.
For the poll, I would actually prefer that the ring not prevent haste while the flail does, and that all versions of the flail have free action for consistency. This is 100% for balancing (a dubious proposition in BG, granted) and not at all for flavor or in world logic reasons, though the latter could be explained with in game text or something. The flail is insanely strong, so this offers a nice balance to that, but the rings get very limited play as is an I think they could use the buff.
... definitively convince me i can go ahead with a little personal fix as well (mine will be just a little bigger to do..on all items that can be concerned and.. i have to include the bard blade interaction bug(waste) with DS as well..in theory, no problem, already noticed how to do that last time i checked and had a little time for that)..only thing will be to miss not a single items with FA (+pot+spell, et)c..maybe there is a global search possible on the string/ref with DLTCEP/NI, will see that..but in theory, i noticed too how to do that, possible yes) ).
ps;
and thx for the others to Cyteen for the quick fix on the main weapons! ( @Cyteen ; to point to a precise comment in a thread, move your mouse on the date of the comment, right click, copy link.. will have #Comment_xxxxx at the end.