Bastard Swords - a bit disappointing?
abacus
Member Posts: 1,307
Does anyone else feel that bastard swords are a bit naff? They basically end up as a slow, heavy longsword with no advantages other than a piffling increase to minimum damage.
Just to clarify, this isn't about what magical options are available, but I personally would like to see the basic weapon given a bit more character.
(Not dissimilar to composite bows vs longbows,)
To make them closer to their description, how about gaining extra THAC0/damage if equipped either as single-wield or with a shield (shield is strapped to arm unlike off-hand weapon)... Maybe +2 THAC0 & +2 damage for SWFS, and +1 with a shield?
This would give people a reason to avoid the ubiquitous dual-wield and make sword & shield RP'ing a bit more rewarding.
Just to clarify, this isn't about what magical options are available, but I personally would like to see the basic weapon given a bit more character.
(Not dissimilar to composite bows vs longbows,)
To make them closer to their description, how about gaining extra THAC0/damage if equipped either as single-wield or with a shield (shield is strapped to arm unlike off-hand weapon)... Maybe +2 THAC0 & +2 damage for SWFS, and +1 with a shield?
This would give people a reason to avoid the ubiquitous dual-wield and make sword & shield RP'ing a bit more rewarding.
2
Comments
Mode 1: Using 1 hand
Mode 2: Using 2 hands
Would make their description more accurate. Of course this would have more of an effect in a 3e game (like IWD2), where you gain your str bonus at a 1.5 rating if you're using a 2h weapon.
This would make more in line with PnP rules, also it shouldn't be too hard to implement since some throwing axes already has something similar.
Maybe give it some sort of penalty or bonus if a bastard sword is used respectively as a 1- or 2-handed weapon.
It's a classic heroic weapon, but at present it just seems like a more restrictive type of longsword.
Quote from the readme: "It always seemed odd that the general description of bastard swords implied they could be wielded with two hands. This tweak adds an ability to all bastard swords that will create a two-handed version of the sword in your inventory. The one-handed version will be removed. The new sword will have the animation of a two-handed sword but, in all other respects, will be the same as the one-handed version. You can switch back to the one-handed version at any time. The ability is found behind the backpack icon, once the sword is equipped. This component will affect items introduced by mods."
And I would also like to see a feature like this, just maybe to make Stormbringer
The ultimate difference between a Dagger and a Katana is 3 points of damage and Speed Factor.
The ultimate difference between a Long Sword and a Bastard Sword is 0.5 points of damage and Speed Factor.
The ultimate difference between a Katana and a Two Handed Sword is Speed Factor, and that one takes two hands.
On average, there is less difference between using a piddling little dagger versus a two handed greatsword than there is between having 18 and 19 Strength.
That's not very impressive.
So the one and only aspect on which having a Bastard Sword instead of any other weapon in the game matters is with what magical weapons are available of that type.
Blade of Ages +3 - Bastard Sword 2D4+3 damage +1 Fire, +1 Acid, +1 Cold, chance of Slowing on each hit. Can be upgraded to +4 and even +5.
Enadnukmlebeht +2 - +1 Attack.
The Even Answerer-er +5 - 7-13 damage, each hit lowers AC by 2 and MR by 15%.
Now Bastard Swords are incredible, exciting and the best proficiency to have. It's the fact that there are two swords worth even looking in, both of which are conditionally mediocre, both of which are outshone by other, better weapons that makes Bastard Swords so disappointing, as it is, without magic weapons they're all 3 average damage or less from one another, which is about as dull as it gets.
He/She is being facetious.. Enadnukmlebeht is "The Belm Kundane" backwards… The even answerer and blade of ages are adaptations of existing weapons in other categories… none of them east in game. His point is that bastard swords are underserved in the magic department (this was not the point of the discussion, as the intent was to be more role-playing focussed, but whatever).
Edit: Curse you @kryptix!!
Instead, for all of SoA Bastard Swords cap at +3, and for all of ToB there is one non-Paladin Bastard Sword worth anything. Why there are fewer enchanted Bastard Swords than there are Katanas I have no idea.
As to the topic, weapons in D&D have always had a sort of samey-ness issue. It's a problem of not enough different statistics on the weapons. Battle axes, scimitars, ninja-to, long sword, and bastard swords are all pretty similar, being 1 handed 1d8 (2d4 for bastard swords) slashing weapons. On top of the small range of damage options, you also have the problem in some D&D editions where the base weapon stops mattering compared to damage modifiers. In BG you're often adding 15-20 extra damage on top of the die roll, and that gets worse in later editions (high level 3rd you might expect to see modifiers over a hundred for a damage machine fighter type).
IIRC in AD&D if you backstabbed with a dagger you added one to the backstab multiplier (from x2 to x3, from x3 to x4 etc)
According to @TrentOster this changed when Trent showed him critting another dev's character in game Semaj for 120 during the final battle (with Trent's Fighter/Thief).
The point I'm trying to make their is (using 19 str just cause I know the numbers off my head), 1d8+7 (8-15)x7 compared to 1d4+7 (8-11)x8, suddenly now daggers aren't so behind (max damage of 105 compared to 88).
I don't really see the need for bastard swords at all in the BG series...the short sword, long sword and 2H swords are enough variations for me (not to mentions scimitars and katanas), especially when they use different proficiency types. This is only compounded by the dearth of useful bastard swords in the series, although that wasn't the focus of this discussion.
Bastard Swords are nice if you want to try something different, and there are actually a few good ones. Purifier is a mini-carsomyr that you can dual-wield with another weapon or use with a shield to get higher AC and other benefits. All in all it's your call but Bastard Swords are far from disappointing.
As I've said elsewhere, I'm not one of these who needs half a dozen +4 or better weapons to consider a class viable (SoA is the most rewarding part of the saga anyway), but I do like to feel that if one guy has a longsword and the other a bastard sword, they aren't just hacking away in the same manner...
It doesn't spoil the game for me, it's just a small-sigh-situation.
Actually the most unique and exciting aspect about the Bastard Sword is the fact that it's the only weapon except the Crossbow that doesn't have access to a +3 or better weapon in general SoA, since Watcher's Keep is supposed to be between SoA and ToB.
Since there are approximately eleven million better Longswords and Two-Handed Swords, I can only assume that there's some union conspiracy keeping Bastard Swords so incredibly underrepresented.
Personally I'd like to see a synergy benefit between similar weapon types, for each pip in a related weapon, you get a benefit for all other weapons in that field:
1: +1 to Hit.
2: +1 to Hit, +1 to Damage.
5: +2 to Hit, +1 to Damage.
10+: +2 to Hit, +2 to Damage.
Groupings would probably be:
Heavy Blades: Bastard Swords, Two Handed Swords
Curved Blades: Scimitars, Katanas
Straight Blades: Bastard Swords, Long Swords, Short Swords
Light Blades: Short Swords, Daggers
Light Weapons: Daggers, Darts
Cudgels: Clubs, Maces, Morningstars
Hafted Weapons: Axe, Warhammer
Archery Weapons: Longbow, Shortbow, Crossbow
Polearms: Staff, Spear, Halberd
Twirly Cleric Things: Flails, Slings
Maximised with Grandmasteries, this would mean:
Axes, Warhammers, Darts, Two-Handed-Swords, Flails, Scimitars, Katanas and Slings: +2/+1
Staff, Spear, Halberd, Clubs, Maces and Morningstars, Long Swords, Daggers, Longbows, Shortbows, Daggers, Crossbows, Bastard Swords and Short Swords: +2/+2
2 pips max (multiclass and so on) gives:
Shortswords and Bastard Swords: +2/+1
Everything else: +1/+1
1 pip max (everyone else):
Scimitars, Katanas, Flails, Slings, Darts: +1/+0
Short Swords, Daggers, Long Swords, Clubs, Maces, Morningstar, Staff. Spear, Halberd, Longbow, Short Bow, Crossbow: +1/+1
Everything else I believe is unavailable.
So yeah, not huge numbers but this would definitely be encouragement to put pips into underused proficiencies.
Foebane is very easy to get - if you go early you mostly face mephits. The sword is on the first pair of statues that activate when you take the book so you only need to defeat those. They're not particularly easy but there's only two of them and I think even a party straight out of Irenicus' dungeon could manage it with some care and preparation. It's probably easier than getting Celestial Fury, and it's definitely easier than getting Daystar with SCS because you have to actually kill the lich.
Purifier is trickier but still doable - you have to take down the rest of the level 1 statues first, which is a bit harder but not terribly so. Then you have to beat level 2 and the chromatic demon. The enemies aren't too bad; their peculiar AI makes them vulnerable to missile weapons. The chromatic demon hits hard in melee and has a couple of spell-like attacks but is weak to wands and spells. Purifier itself is in the room directly east of the entrance on the third level. Unfortunately it's an antimagic room and has a couple of demons but you don't need to fight them; you can run up and grab purifier, then leave (make sure you take the correct portal, west, or you'll end up in an even nastier room).
I suppose if you're opposed to doing a raid on Watcher's Keep then you'll have to wait a long time for good swords, but... it's right there, take it or leave it. I think it's intentional that Foebane is so easy to get, precisely because of the dearth of good early bastard swords.