Battle of the Mages
Pantalion
Member Posts: 2,137
So, the general population is pretty much decided that when it's cleric on mage, the mage is going to win.
So what about Mage on Mage?
Who in your mind is the one true victor of magery? Is it dual-class Kensai -> Mage? Pure Sorcerer? Wild Mage -> Thief? Bard? Illusionist/Cleric?
Stage 1:
Create your contender.
Rules:
All participants are at the 8,000,000 Exp cap.
Assume all participants share the following stats before equipment and racial modifiers before equipment:
Strength: 20, Dexterity: 20, Constitution: 20, Intelligence: 20, Wisdom: 22, Charisma: 20. Elves get +1 Dex, -1 Con and so on.
No permanent bonuses beyond those granted by Race, Class or Kit (No DoMT permanent mind shield, no Hell Trials MR, no Slayer form ability and so on).
Your choice of proficiencies.
Your choice of thief skills.
Your choice of spells known (if you're a non-sorcerer, I assume "all of them").
Your choice of HLAs.
Your choice of equipment from BG2 to ToB, with mild constraints:
- Unless it's in a quickslot or equipped, it's unusable during a confrontation.
- If quickslot items are abused, then I'll suggest limitations for how many scrolls/potions etc may be added, since scroll-wars isn't really indicative of any particular class ability.
- Feel free to use Drow Equipment if you want.
A few mild "no cheese" limitations
- Your mislead clone is always close enough to target to be seen.
- You may equip your Staff of the Magi once at the beginning of combat, not alternate it to instantly disappear, - Thieves can hide at the beginning, and may only re-hide if they have some way of eluding their enemy, or if they're Shadowdancers.
- You probably know when you're trying something cheesy.
- No Quantum Spell-lists, if you're not a Sorcerer, then you pick your spells ahead of time and they have to apply to all the conflicts. If you're a sorcerer, your spells known is a defined quantity.
- To eliminate Random, Wild Mages may not use Nahal's. In return they are assumed not to surge.
- No Wishing. Limited Wish is fine for repeatable uses only.
The contenders you make can be faced off against all other contenders.
Stage 2:
Duel!
Combat occurs in an arena area. There is a single, sight obscuring pillar in the centre of the arena.
Both participants are fully rested before being transported to the arena.
Both participants have the chance to cast one spell before being transported to the arena.
Assume both are controlled by equally intelligent, experienced players.
There is no time limit, and no escape.
Your goal is to demonstrate that your contender can reliably handle their opponents.
If it comes down to "whoever casts Timestop first", "whoever fails their save first", or anything particularly random, it's a draw.
Likewise, any situation where you have a questionable advantage over your opponent (i.e. Fighter/Mage getting into melee against a Kensai -> Mage) is assumed to be a draw.
If there's a trick your equipment/class/spell choice can bring up that is demonstrably pretty well uncounterable by your opponent, that's considered a flawless victory.
Being able to reliably place yourself into a situation where you have a significant advantage over the opponent (a Kensai -> Mage getting into Improved Hasted melee combat with a pure Mage, a significantly high MR mage getting into a spell vs spell match against a low MR mage, a Gnome getting into a Save or Die battle with a non-Gnome, a Pure Mage getting into a Dispel battle with a Multiclass mage) is considered a victory.
If someone can demonstrate something you've overlooked or neglected to account for, it's your responsibility to account for it.
Stage 3:
Daily life.
For bonus points, how does your character choice perform in a party role? Can they handle the rigours of day-to-day adventuring in a balanced party? Do they even need a party?
The overall winner over the most possible opponents gets to ascend to be the new "God(dess) of Murder Magic", the losers get to weep and wail and presumably plan to change to whichever class/loadout the winner used.
So what about Mage on Mage?
Who in your mind is the one true victor of magery? Is it dual-class Kensai -> Mage? Pure Sorcerer? Wild Mage -> Thief? Bard? Illusionist/Cleric?
Stage 1:
Create your contender.
Rules:
All participants are at the 8,000,000 Exp cap.
Assume all participants share the following stats before equipment and racial modifiers before equipment:
Strength: 20, Dexterity: 20, Constitution: 20, Intelligence: 20, Wisdom: 22, Charisma: 20. Elves get +1 Dex, -1 Con and so on.
No permanent bonuses beyond those granted by Race, Class or Kit (No DoMT permanent mind shield, no Hell Trials MR, no Slayer form ability and so on).
Your choice of proficiencies.
Your choice of thief skills.
Your choice of spells known (if you're a non-sorcerer, I assume "all of them").
Your choice of HLAs.
Your choice of equipment from BG2 to ToB, with mild constraints:
- Unless it's in a quickslot or equipped, it's unusable during a confrontation.
- If quickslot items are abused, then I'll suggest limitations for how many scrolls/potions etc may be added, since scroll-wars isn't really indicative of any particular class ability.
- Feel free to use Drow Equipment if you want.
A few mild "no cheese" limitations
- Your mislead clone is always close enough to target to be seen.
- You may equip your Staff of the Magi once at the beginning of combat, not alternate it to instantly disappear, - Thieves can hide at the beginning, and may only re-hide if they have some way of eluding their enemy, or if they're Shadowdancers.
- You probably know when you're trying something cheesy.
- No Quantum Spell-lists, if you're not a Sorcerer, then you pick your spells ahead of time and they have to apply to all the conflicts. If you're a sorcerer, your spells known is a defined quantity.
- To eliminate Random, Wild Mages may not use Nahal's. In return they are assumed not to surge.
- No Wishing. Limited Wish is fine for repeatable uses only.
The contenders you make can be faced off against all other contenders.
Stage 2:
Duel!
Combat occurs in an arena area. There is a single, sight obscuring pillar in the centre of the arena.
Both participants are fully rested before being transported to the arena.
Both participants have the chance to cast one spell before being transported to the arena.
Assume both are controlled by equally intelligent, experienced players.
There is no time limit, and no escape.
Your goal is to demonstrate that your contender can reliably handle their opponents.
If it comes down to "whoever casts Timestop first", "whoever fails their save first", or anything particularly random, it's a draw.
Likewise, any situation where you have a questionable advantage over your opponent (i.e. Fighter/Mage getting into melee against a Kensai -> Mage) is assumed to be a draw.
If there's a trick your equipment/class/spell choice can bring up that is demonstrably pretty well uncounterable by your opponent, that's considered a flawless victory.
Being able to reliably place yourself into a situation where you have a significant advantage over the opponent (a Kensai -> Mage getting into Improved Hasted melee combat with a pure Mage, a significantly high MR mage getting into a spell vs spell match against a low MR mage, a Gnome getting into a Save or Die battle with a non-Gnome, a Pure Mage getting into a Dispel battle with a Multiclass mage) is considered a victory.
If someone can demonstrate something you've overlooked or neglected to account for, it's your responsibility to account for it.
Stage 3:
Daily life.
For bonus points, how does your character choice perform in a party role? Can they handle the rigours of day-to-day adventuring in a balanced party? Do they even need a party?
The overall winner over the most possible opponents gets to ascend to be the new "God(dess) of Murder Magic", the losers get to weep and wail and presumably plan to change to whichever class/loadout the winner used.
0
Comments
Personally I would prefer a sorcerer tho, just becasue of the ability to use several different spells without planning for a specific eventuality (and number of spells too if it comes down to attrition, lots of pierce magic might be the winner). Hehe, a sorcerer could win by just magic missleing the opposing mage to death.
Really looking forward...
Familiars allowed and not counting as pre-buff?
Win
Or if you want an ACTUAL victory, I suppose there might be ways since no pre-buffing as I assume the "one spell" doesn't mean "Go ahead and have a chain contingency ready".
When you account for contingencies and sequencers, yes, each mage has a lot of the same tricks available.
This said, certain Mage characters can easily accumulate an MR of 75% or more from gear, which means that a lot of their opponents are going to have spend spells lowering their resistance before they can even hope to reliably disable their opponent as you suggest.
@SpaceInvader
I would permit it, but in the end, your identically equipped opponent can do the same thing, and when your strategy on both sides descends into "apply invisibility often enough to overwhelm True Sight", "Wish abuse until it sticks" and the like, it just sort of muddies things. Feel free to consider it when talking about party utility though.
For purposes of the thread, I'd consider a Familiar to be "equipment" and fair game for anyone's use. If you've any novel uses for a familiar in high level mage combat I'd love to see it, since mine always end up in my inventory long before ToB.
For the most part, it's mathematical. If your success depends on a single 50/50 chance of success, I'd suggest you assume it's a draw. If your success depends on any one of ten 50/50 chances working in your favour, with no realistic counter from your opponent in the meantime, then that's a 99.9% chance of victory or so, which is about as flawless as you can hope for.
For damage spells, pretty much the same thing applies, the better the odds of your victory the more decisive your victory, the more "but what ifs" your strategy permits, the more likely it's a draw or a defeat.
@FinneousPJ
I hope you're right, actually, and that the result of this thread is a great resource of high level mage strategy and a series of amazing characters (and a chance for the expert players on the board to strut their stuff making said characters).
@Kaltzor
As with quickslots, if everything does come down to the casting of a single spell which has no counter, then I'd suggest trying characters with that spell excluded, but for now it's fair game to include most spells.
That way, mages have flexibility in preparation, while sorcerers have flexibility in battle. That's only fair, in my book.
With this in mind, what about a loadout option for each of the following classes?
Pure Mage.
Mage with a Thief component. (Including F/M/Ts and Bards)
Mage with a Fighter component. (Including F/M/Cs)
Mage with a Cleric component.
I'm not trying to imbalance things for or against anyone, so don't hesitate to speak up if this is grouped unsatisfactorarily.
Feel free to Copy/Paste the layout.
Contender #1:
Elven Fighter/Mage/Thief
Stats: 20/21/19/20/22/20
HP: 130 + Familiar (24), total 154 HP.
Base THAC0: 3 (0 with Strength 20)
Attacks: 2
Saves: 3/4/4/4/5
Proficiencies: Bastard Sword, Flail, Two Handed Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, Katana. All 2 pips.
Thief Skills: Hide: 130, Move Silently: 130, Detect Illusions: 100, Set Traps: 100, Find Traps: 100, Open Locks 100.
Backstab: x5
HLAs (20): Assassination, Use Any Item, Set Exploding Trap (x2), Set Spike Trap (x4), Set Time Trap (x3), Power Attack, Critical Strike (x4), Avoid Death, Hardiness (x3)
Spells:
Level 1 (5): Protection from Evil (x2), Spook (x3)
Level 2 (5): Mirror Image (x5)
Level 3 (5): Spell Thrust, Protection from Cold, Protection from Fire, Lightning Bolt (x2)
Level 4 (5): Improved Invisibility (x2), Stoneskin (x2), Polymorph Self
Level 5 (5): Spell Immunity (x5)
Level 6 (3): Contingency, Mislead, Death Spell
Level 7 (3): Spell Sequencer, Power Word Stun, Summon Hakeashar
Level 8 (2): Simulacrum, Maze
Equipment:
Body - Robe of Vecna
Hands - Wondrous Gloves
Head - The Visage
Neck - Harper Pin
Weapon 1 - Flail of Ages +5
Weapon 2 - Purifier +5
Offhand - Hindo's Doom +4
Ring 1 - Ring of Gaxx
Ring 2 - Ring of Protection +3
Cloak - Cloak of Mirroring
Boots - Gargoyle Boots
Belt - Belt of Inertial Barrier
Quick Slot 1 - Wand of Spell Striking
Quick Slot 2 - Potions of Speed
Quick Slot 3 - Potions of Invisibility
Pack: Familiar
End Stats:
Saving Throws: +5 Spell, +5 Breath, +6 All
AC: -6
+30% MR with Purifier.
Free Action and +5% MR with Flail of Ages.
General MR: 30%
Equipment Special Features: Non-Detection, Immunity to Critical Hits, Magic Missile, Confusion, Fear, Charm, Feeblemind, Death Magic, Backstabs, Poison, and Disease.
100% Resistant to Electricity
50% Resistant to Magic Damage.
25% Resistant to Missile Damage.
-5 Casting Speed
Regeneration 2 HP per round.
Bonus Spells: Mirror Image, Haste, Stoneskin
THAC0: -3/1
Attacks: 3.5
Saves: -3/-2/-2/-7/-6
Damage:
Flail of Ages: 27-32
Purifier +5: 17-23
Offhand: 15-24
Without level 10 spells, or even level 9 spells and refusing to muck around with Scroll silliness, I'm pretty confident that this isn't going to get very far.