Speed Weapons
HandofTyr
Member Posts: 106
So how does everyone feel about speed weapons as implemented in the BG games (actually just BG2)? I was considering making a poll with a they're fine and then other options with various tweaks, but it seemed that there were too many options so discussion form works better.
For me, I wouldn't mind some minor changes. Speed weapons are a little too dominant in the two weapon fighting discussion, and generally dominant in high damage discussions too. I have no idea if any of these tweaks are possible per engine or contract, but I'd venture that a couple are.
One would be making the extra attack only apply to the speed weapon. This is the lightest change, but it does at least mean that it's worthwhile to change from belm off-hand to something else when fighting a critter immune to +2 weapons, and there will be some minor damage loss later game from more attacks from an inferior weapon. A subset of this would be making the extra attack only apply when the weapon is in the main-hand, which does the same thing as above but to a larger degree, and also prevents doubling up on speed weapons.
Another would be taking a page from 3.5 and preventing speed weapons from stacking with haste effects. This would make the weapons have a much more limited window of use (all are available very early), depending on if you're one of the IH always up crowd or not. If you're one who rarely remembers to use a full buff suite before a fight, then they still have a use later too game as they'll offer more damage in the day to day fights where buffs aren't up.
Alternatively, they could introduce more speed weapons, which is sort of counter to what I want, but a nice +3 speed halberd or two hander might be able to compete with an off hand belm two weapon wielder damage wise- it depends a lot on the main hand in question. This would also open whichever weapon categories got speed weapons up more to non fighters, as currently they rely on speed weapons to get good damage since they have limited other options to increase attacks per round. A good speed mace would help pure clerics who want to do their secondary frontliner job, for instance.
So what are your thoughts?
For me, I wouldn't mind some minor changes. Speed weapons are a little too dominant in the two weapon fighting discussion, and generally dominant in high damage discussions too. I have no idea if any of these tweaks are possible per engine or contract, but I'd venture that a couple are.
One would be making the extra attack only apply to the speed weapon. This is the lightest change, but it does at least mean that it's worthwhile to change from belm off-hand to something else when fighting a critter immune to +2 weapons, and there will be some minor damage loss later game from more attacks from an inferior weapon. A subset of this would be making the extra attack only apply when the weapon is in the main-hand, which does the same thing as above but to a larger degree, and also prevents doubling up on speed weapons.
Another would be taking a page from 3.5 and preventing speed weapons from stacking with haste effects. This would make the weapons have a much more limited window of use (all are available very early), depending on if you're one of the IH always up crowd or not. If you're one who rarely remembers to use a full buff suite before a fight, then they still have a use later too game as they'll offer more damage in the day to day fights where buffs aren't up.
Alternatively, they could introduce more speed weapons, which is sort of counter to what I want, but a nice +3 speed halberd or two hander might be able to compete with an off hand belm two weapon wielder damage wise- it depends a lot on the main hand in question. This would also open whichever weapon categories got speed weapons up more to non fighters, as currently they rely on speed weapons to get good damage since they have limited other options to increase attacks per round. A good speed mace would help pure clerics who want to do their secondary frontliner job, for instance.
So what are your thoughts?
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Comments
Alternatively I would like to see single-weapon style give 1/2 attack
First Round: Main, Off, Main, Off
Second Round: Main, Off, Main
Third Round: Off, Main, Off, Main
etc.
Then you'd have to pick individually powerful weapons for both hands to be effective, instead of loading up your secondary with whatever weapon has the best secondary effects.
I agree though that the speed weapons throw things a bit out of whack. They make any other weapon combo quite inferior, and narrow choices (assuming you want to maximize efficiency in the first place). IR's 1/2 APR solution seems fair; that way they remain valid endgame choices, but it doesn't take much for other weapons to compete now - particularly with the many interesting effects on items added by the same mod.
The OH 1 APR limitation seems to be fairly hardcoded, so other solutions would be tricky to implement and balance. One option would be to overhaul the entire weapon system, and make styles more distinguished. 1h style for example is very weak, and not really too useful outside of GWW and Backstab (involving rapid weapon switching).
But as it stands the whole reason people consider using those weapons is because the extra attack and the fact that off-hand only gets 1 attack anyway, making it so that people always go for a utility option in the off-hand.
Not to mention these weapons are almost vital to characters who need more attacks per-round, like thieves (Swashbucklers or Blades especially need these weapons).
Either adding a shield or 2 with solid immunities or damage resistance or changing sword & shield style to add save bonuses or damage/elematal resistance with a shield equipped could make them more interesting.
The question with competing against speed weapons is how far would they have to go? Especially for non-fighters. If the answer creates a weapon that's clearly over the top, then speed weapons need to be weakened somehow.
main problem though really is just that the alternatives to dual wielding are so poor the game desperately needed some high end shields with powerful immunities/ resistances or stat buffs I don't see why we couldnt have shields that give attack bonuses or stat buffs comparable to the weapons