Cleric/Ranger Multiclass or Ranger-->Cleric Dual Class? (BGIIEE playthrough only)

booinyoureyes

I've been hearing about this cleric/ranger build for a long time, and I'm very eager to try it out. I'm not certain, however, which way to go.

Can anyone help a brother out with some advice? What are the trade-offs and advantages of one method over the other?

Also, if I do the dual class option what level should I go from Ranger-->Cleric

ONLY THE SECOND GAME!

FinneousPJ

Is this excluding ToB?

booinyoureyes

No, I'll be playing all the way through (If I like the character). Which I guess means Dual is better for the High Level Abilities?

Just for more info, the party I'm kinda planning on is: Rasaad (romance) Mazzy Keldorn, Xan mod (Sorcerer) then Imoen/Yoshimo/Imoen

Edit: May replace Mazzy with Aerie and eventually this spot will be for Sarevok no matter what

SethDavis

i think you have access to more different spells than you should (druid i think) as a multi/dual class, so if you start as a multi you'll have access to them sooner than you would as a dual.

i might be wrong though and it is a bit exploity.

CrevsDaak

Don't dual-class, just multi-class, it is much better, you do not get so much bonuses from it as a multi-class, but if you wish so, I recommend at lvl13.
Still, the best option is multi-class, you do not get good bonuses from a dual-class with this particular classes.

booinyoureyes

SethDavis said:

i think you have access to more different spells than you should (druid i think) as a multi/dual class, so if you start as a multi you'll have access to them sooner than you would as a dual.

i might be wrong though and it is a bit exploity.

Haha, I don't mind being a little exploity in my game :P.

hmm... I just dual classed and I got Iron Skins for level five when I cheated in some experience.

@CrevsDaak Why is multi-class better? Also Level 13 is waaayyy late. I was thinking of just dualing her earlier on, maybe even level 7 if not 9 (may even cheat her up a level or two to get out of the Circus tent to be at least almost Cleric-Activated so that I'm not a shitty Anomen)

DarkDogg

I would recommend you this:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/faqs/39404
I've used this FAQ for myself.

Multi cleric\ranger FTW.

Pantalion

Lemme just go grab one of my previous responses for you.

Pantalion said:

On the Ranger/Cleric Multi vs Dual issue, level 13 takes 1.5m, level 15 takes 2.1m. 15 -> 34 or 13 -> 36

Meanwhile Ranger/Cleric Multiclass gets to a middling 21/25.

The more optimal choice of the two, Ranger 13 -> Cleric gets:

6 THAC0 (capped, at level 22 Cleric - 4,650,000 Exp)
2 Attacks (at level 14 Cleric - 2,850,000 Exp)
2/6/5/5/7 Saves (capped, at level 19 Cleric - 3,975,000 Exp)
Access to level 7 Spells (at level 14 Cleric - 2,850,000 Exp)
Access to HLAs at level 22 Cleric (4,650,000 Exp)

At cap:
Progresses to 9/9/9/9/9/8/6 spells at 8,000,000 Exp.
Capped HP = 9D10+54 HP.
19 Proficiency Pips (Including overlap, this probably works out a bit fewer, but who cares?) +2 for 21 pips total.
15 HLAs from the Cleric pool.
6 THAC0, 2 Attacks, 2/6/5/5/7 Saves

At around the same points Ranger/Cleric multiclass gets:

6 THAC0 at level 15 Ranger (4,200,000 Exp)
2 Attacks at level 13 Ranger (3,000,000 Exp)
4/7/6/5/8 saves at level 16 Cleric (3,600,000 Exp)
Access to Level 7 Spells at level 14 Cleric (2,700,000 Exp)
Access to HLAs from level 15 Ranger (3,000,000 Exp)

At cap:
Progresses to 9/9/9/9/9/7/3 spells at 8,000,000 Exp.
Capped HP = 9D9+34 (AKA [(1.5x12)+16] HP)
11 Proficiency Pips +2 for 13 pips total.
18 HLAs from the Cleric and Ranger pools.
0 THAC0, 2 Attacks, 2/5/4/4/6 saves (capped at 5,400,000 Exp).

So Ranger dual gets:
+6 worse THAC0 - Both before and after it reaches Cleric THAC0 6. After it caps, R/C continues to improve at 4.8m exp, and every 600k exp thereafter.
1 more level 6 spell.
3 more level 7 spells.
3 fewer HLAs, acheived 1.5 million exp later.
An average of 39 HP more.
8 (debatably useful) more Proficiency Pips.
Worse saves of every type.
To be Human (aka no 30% Resistance to Charm and Sleep effects).
2,850,000 Exp's worth of either not playing a Cleric, or not playing a Ranger.

For comparison, one then needs to compare the advantage that better THAC0; better, though slightly delayed, saves; better early game; and better, and more, HLAs with some HP, proficiencies and four level 6 or 7 spells.

If we take Hardiness three times, that's 10 rounds of 40% physical damage resistance. If we take Critical Strike twice, then with your friendly party mage can help ensure your 3.5 attacks per round become 7 attacks that all automatically hit, and crit, with Improved Haste. That's the equivalent of 7 attacks per round unhasted, 14 attacks per round iHasted. Three HLAs probably work out slightly favourably to three level 7 spells, as does access to Warrior HLAs, because cleric HLAs sorta suck.

So we have proficiencies (13 pips gets you 2 in Flails, 2 in Maces, 2 in Warhammers, 2 in Slings, 3 in Two-Weapon Fighting and the rest don't matter), 39 HP (Irrelevant), Caster Level (maxes at 20)....

Unlike Fighter -> where you're getting Grand Mastery, Ranger/Cleric multiclass is actually a much better character than the dual-class in several ways.

Mitchfork

Cleric/Rangers are hella fun. I've only done the multi-class option, but here are some thoughts (these are somewhat based on a level 13 dual- level 9 would be the other popular choice):

Clerics have a much lower level requirement for their HLA's than a Mage does. This makes multi-class Clerics a lot more viable than multi-class Mages. Multi-class Clerics can start taking Quest Spells at 3,150,000 XP, while a Fighter/Mage starts taking level 10 spells at 6,000,000 XP. Your multi-class Cleric/Ranger gets more HLA's, a bigger pool for HLA's, and can take all of the quest spells than a dual-class Ranger->Cleric can get.

Speaking of HLA's- a Cleric/Ranger is typically going to play a heavy melee role since that's how the classes synergize best throughout the game. Fighter HLA's help a lot.

Ranger->Clerics will have 1 more 6th level spell and 3 more 7th level spells at the level cap.

A Cleric/Ranger multi only loses 1 HP per level (up to level 10) compared to a Ranger->Cleric, so there's not a strong reason to dual for HP (unlike with a Fighter->Mage).

A Ranger->Cleric will get more proficiency points, but these aren't too useful because of your limited weapon selection. If you take two-weapon style you can max out 3/4 of the one-handed weapons you could use plus slings (your only ranged option).

Cleric/Rangers are half-elves, and Ranger->Clerics are humans. Half-elves get useful racial resistances that humans miss out on, and they both have the same stat restrictions.

Cleric/Ranger multis have better saving throws (marginal) and THAC0 (difference of 6) since they progress further as warriors.

Overall I think the only practical disadvantage that a Cleric/Ranger multi has is that they miss a couple of spells in the very very late game, but they make up for it in their better HLA picks, THAC0, and saves.

Here's a pretty good post for more information:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/435070/#Comment_435070

EDIT: Oh hey @Pantalion, didn't see you there.

nano

I'd go multiclass too. Honestly I don't know what to do with a high level cleric, like you'll be level 30 cleric instead of... 19ish but it's not like a mage where you become super powerful because of it. For this combo you probably want to buff up and mix it up in melee and having fighter HLAs will be much better than whatever ~10 extra cleric levels get you.

FinneousPJ

Multiclass all the way then

CrevsDaak

@booinyoureyes warrior classes get an extra half APR at lvl13.
And really, you do bot get bonuses witg dual-class with this combo, really talking.

Koyote

My personal prefferance is to dual at lvl 9,10, or 11 so I can still hit lvl 39 cleric. Remember that the only real reason to do this combo is to enhance your spell casting.

Pantalion

Koyote said:

My personal prefferance is to dual at lvl 9,10, or 11 so I can still hit lvl 39 cleric. Remember that the only real reason to do this combo is to enhance your spell casting.

So I actually bothered to check.

8 HLAs are actually all a Cleric gets.

Aura of Flaming Death
Elemental Summoning
Energy Blades
Globe of Blades
Implosion
Mass Raise Dead
Storm of Vengeance
Summon Deva

Since you can take each one once, that's 8 total.

Ranger/Clerics get 18 HLAs.

Critical Strike
Deathblow
Greater Deathblow
Greater Whirlwind Attack
Hardiness
Power Attack
Resist Magic
Smite
Tracking
War Cry
Whirlwind Attack

The Ranger/Cleric actually gets to get all 8 Quest Spells plus 10 more from the above list (or more likely far more, because a few of those Quest spells are terrible).

18 HLAs (at least 10 of which are in addition to spell slots) versus 8 (which must be memorised into actual spell slots).

So that's 13 Level 7 spells or equivalents (since that's theoretically what these HLAs and Quest spells are), versus 6 Level 7 Spells or Equivalents.

So with this in mind (and a level 20 cap on caster level) how, precisely, does dual classing help enhance your spell casting?

Belanos

booinyoureyes said:

Why is multi-class better?

Because with multi-class you keep progressing in both classes at the same time. With dual-class, the one stops progressing altogether. So you'll end up with a stronger character in the long run by multi-classing.

booinyoureyes

@Pantalion but wouldn't my access to higher spells be delayed? How about spells per level?

I started the game now with my cleric/ranger. Its fun so far, but I feel like I may be behind on spells.

GamingFreak

Multi-class in general has no real penalties besides split XP, and then there's the fact that you get HLA's from both pools (That means Hardiness and Greater Whirlwind are available). On top of that there's no down time that dual classing would incorporate and so you can use your druid and cleric spells early.

Cleric/Ranger multi is basically a class build that's capable of doing almost anything a party could need. Healing? Check. Mage killing? Check. Front liner? Check. Ranged support? Check. Finding Traps? Check. Cleric buffs? Check. Undead killing? Check. Summoning spells? Check. Self-buffs to make you more awesome? Check.

Give a Ranger/Cleric the Flail of Ages and Defender of Easthaven offhand (or any awesome main-hand weapon from the blunt/crushing category) and just buff up and kill everything. You can summon insects to hamper mages, cast iron skins to give you extra protections, etc.

It's basically the ultimate cheese build. And entirely based upon a system exploit.

Koyote

@Pantalion I'll take a swing at your question. Ranger/Cleric Multi tends to be a killer melee combatant backed by a very nice set of buffs. They tend to not cast very much in combat because you cant exactly swing while casting. Ranger Cleric dual really expands the clerics spell list at a very low cost and gives them access to incredibly powerful spells (two of which are a lot better than anything from the hla spell list). They tend to focus a lot more on casting during combat. For me, 8 level 7 spells, reliable dispels and high level turn undeads are a lot more useful than anything from the ranger hla pool. However, everyone has their own play style so there is no right answer...well, except for everyone who is saying that this combo is an exploit of the game engine and should probably be avoided ;-)

Pantalion

@booinyoureyes

See my original post, for a level 13 Ranger dual, the multiclass gets access to level 7 spells first at 2.7m exp, the dual at 2.85m.

From there, the dual does pull ahead on spells per day, getting its extra level 9 slots earlier than the multiclass does. By the time it hits 6 million exp, the Dual will have its holy symbol, and be level 28 for 9 Level 6 Spells/day and 5 level 7 Spells/day.
Multi at the same Exp will have 8 level 5s, 6 level 6s, and 2 level 7s.

Finally at cap, the Ranger/Cleric gets their holy symbol as well, bringing it up to 9/9/9/9/9/8/4 spells as opposed to 9/9/9/9/9/9/7.

So towards the very end-game, a Ranger/Cleric will have 2-3 fewer level 7 spells in their arsenal, but because of that long period of spell-drought for being a ranger 13.

If you were running both through BG1 for the Wisdom Tomes, you'd end up with 21 + Lums + Hell + DoMT + Silver Ioun Stone 25 Wisdom, which nets an extra level 7 spell each, and generally 5 level 7 slots versus the maximum possible dual of 9 (Level 38 Cleric) is hardly even noteworthy.

@Koyote

I figured it would be the Dispels, though I personally consider stripping buffs to be a job for mages, and the job of the Ranger/Cleric to blind everyone and then cover them in BEEEEEEEES, which sort of makes enemy spellcasting a non-issue.

Honestly can't say that I considered Turn Undead to be an issue though, what are the perks of level 26+ Turn Undead?

GamingFreak

All I know is that when you get Turn Undead high enough you'll outright destroy them. Or in Viconia's case turn them on your side. I never really messed with Turn Undead myself; too much hassle to practice with when late in the game most of your undead are blood-suckers and lichies.

booinyoureyes

hmmmm... but what about earlier on? I don't really want to suck till the end of TOB.

Yet so far I'm doing well. I've cleared the keep, killed Mae'var, finished Umar Hills and I'm in the Planar Sphere. My character is pretty damn good now. Xan and Mazzy are killing everything too

GamingFreak

booinyoureyes said:

hmmmm... but what about earlier on? I don't really want to suck till the end of TOB.

Yet so far I'm doing well. I've cleared the keep, killed Mae'var, finished Umar Hills and I'm in the Planar Sphere. My character is pretty damn good now. Xan and Mazzy are killing everything too

Did you multi-class or dual? Personally I think Dual Classing is okay at best with this option, but that's because you miss out on the warrior HLAs.

booinyoureyes

I multi-classed. I have iron skins now so it's all good I'm dual-wielding the Flail of Ages and a +2 mace (which will be replaced with the Defender of Easthaven in the off hand)

Pantalion

booinyoureyes said:

hmmmm... but what about earlier on? I don't really want to suck till the end of TOB.

Yet so far I'm doing well. I've cleared the keep, killed Mae'var, finished Umar Hills and I'm in the Planar Sphere. My character is pretty damn good now. Xan and Mazzy are killing everything too

Early on you have access to every level of spells earlier than a Ranger 13 Dual Class. You're level 11 Cleric by the time they hit level 1 Cleric, and you're using level 7 spells before the SoA cap, and you should be rolling in level 5 slots with a decent Wisdom, which means more Iron Skins and Insect Plagues, you definitely won't be suboptimal at any point of the game, Ranger/Clerics are just that good.

FinneousPJ

Dual class is obviously less powerful in the early-mid game and not really better even in late game. I prefer the multi for sure.

Koyote

@Pantalion You can pop Lichs somewhere in the upper 20s or lower 30s. Also, a minor point but if you dual at Ranger level 9, you get level 6 and 7 spells faster than if you multi (a lot faster in the case of level 7 spells).

Lucky1911

on the other side, you will loose the ability to swing knifes and swords. a cleric cannot use those, and blunt weapons may have their upsides, for example against dragons and giants, but swords are so much fun to use, and a ranger gets 2 points for free on dual-wielding.....

i personally do not like the fact that one has no option to make a ranger / mage.....
did try to hack one with EEkeeeper, but that failed, you need to build a fighter for that case. meh

Lord_Tansheron

There is practically no reason to ever dual Ranger->Cleric instead of going multi.

The reason you go dual with Fighter->Cleric is that you a) get Grand Mastery (Rangers do not); and b) get kit bonuses (practically irrelevant or useless with R->C). Fighters also don't have spell progression, meaning the value of levels past lvl 9 drops off somewhat anyway. Rangers have actual spells you might want to go for. As a multi, you also get to pick warrior HLAs later on, which can be a big plus.

Astafas

Lord_Tansheron said:

There is practically no reason to ever dual Ranger->Cleric instead of going multi.

Unless you want a kit.

Lord_Tansheron

Astafas said:

Lord_Tansheron said:

There is practically no reason to ever dual Ranger->Cleric instead of going multi.

Unless you want a kit.

The Ranger kits are not very impressive, though, except for Archer (which even if you did dual it would lose both bows and most of the stacking bonuses). It's highly questionable whether a few kit perks are worth sacrificing things like better THAC0 and HLAs.

Even with Fighters, the kit bonuses alone would probably not be worth going dual. It's Grand Mastery that pushes things over the top there, and that's obviously not a thing for Rangers to begin with.

Arcanjo

Cleric/Ranger Multiclass
learn all spells cleric and druid (Arcane Spells), I know he learns plague of insects not mistaken.?