@Kithirixx Until the Assassin got use any item, and then it would be insane, much like the Kensai/Thief. Just with a better Backstab thaco and damage.
As for the rest of it, I would think dualling into a kit would be a nice change and also having a kit in multiclassing would be cool. I usually grant one kit to multiclassed characters using Level1Npcs.
@IchigoRXC Yes, but that's three million experience down the line. In the meantime, you're still stuck with a character that isn't very good utility-wise without extensive potion quaffing and/or equipment shenanigans, and because it's a Kensai combo, you can't have access to armors OR bracers (both categories of which, IIRC, have thief-boosting items) and is generally very fragile in combat without having access to conventional ranged weapons so they're forced to melee. Yes, the Kensai/Assassin would be amazing at the higher levels once he finally got kitted out, but the distance between starting and reaching that point is full of mediocrity as a source of damage (thanks to MC Fighters lacking full proficiency capability) and as a standard rouge (because you literally HAVE to dump all of the skillpoints into Hide/Move Silently so you can even get the Backstab bonus in the first place).
While a fun idea, I think a Kensai/Swashbuckler would make the game a joke. You'd get a +1 to damage every third level and then again every fifth level with every weapon. By level 10, the weapon you're using soon becomes irrelevant because your base damage bonus is so high. This is not combat utility but superiority, as no other class or monster could ever hope to approach this kind of damage output. While that kind of dmg is wonderful to behold, I cannot call it balanced.
The Swashbuckler kit also erases the Kensai's no-armor penalty. You'd get an initial -3AC and then an additional -1AC every five levels. And then, as stated, you eventually get use any item, which effectively makes the character a strong tank as well as a superior fighter. I think that's a big reason why kits weren't meant to be mixed and matched. It's too easy to min and max. Still, it's easy to add these advantages in an editor if you want them...though I think I said that already.
@Isair: I like the idea of dual classing and picking up another kit...that makes sense to me. Particularly if you didn't pick a kit with your first class.
@Silence A Kensai/Swashbuckler is essentially a Monk without the neat resistances or bonuses and instead has real thief skills (sans backstab, of course). I don't really think it would be an issue at all, especially considering that Use All Items is 3 million experience away and Monks aren't really that overpowered.
A Swashbuckler and a Kensai are individually similar to a Monk, you can argue whether or not a monk is more powerful than either but ultimately they're great classes independently. I like Kithrixx have thought about two kits before and lamented their lack, I understand the arguement that you put foward. Two classes does mean two different sets of penalties, suffered for the larger part of the game.
However the only reason that the idea of two kits is suggested is because they'll be powerful, more powerful than other classes. That's why they're appealing, it's not really a matter of balence. I've played BG1 though in Tutu as a Kensai and even then their shortfallings are easily overcome. Potions are expensive but once you've completed Durlags Tower you've more gold than you know what to do with. Potions of defence aren't overly costly and provide -10 to your AC. There is also spells such as barkskin and items such as the Shield Amulet.
If you have a Kensai/Swashbuckler you're not actually losing anything with the addition of Swashbuckler, if your character is a multiclass - you can't advance past specialized. It's exactly the same for any multi fighter/thief. What you gain is an additional to hit bonuses, damage and AC. You're basically just a more powerful Kensai with lower AC, Thief skills and later on the ability to use any item - Armor, spells etc.
Who'd win in a battle between a Kensai & a Kensai/Swashbuckler? Always the latter.
If one kit multiclasses/dualclasses were introduced it'd open the door for alot of interesting combinations without tipping the balence.
....Fine, I want a Kensai/Conjurer/Swashbuckler!!!!
But on a serious note, I think one kit per multi/dual sounds better and less confusing. I wouldn't mind if it was double kitted though... it's just that having two kits is a bit... overkill, isn't it? I mean you're having double specializations... that are both further specialized. Honestly, for those of you who vote yes on two kits, don't you guys think that's a bit overkill? Not just in a balance factor but also in roleplaying factor?
@Isair@Xavioria I actually tested these out extensively, and made a different thread over here called Multiclassing and Such that contains full details.
As for Isair's concerns about the Kensai/Swashbuckler being more powerful, I actually tested duels between the two. The straight Kensai was often the victor, considering his abundance of attacks per round granting him higher DPS, even when the Kensai/Swash was wearing heavy armor thanks to Use All Items. In 10 rounds of testing, the Kensai won over the Kensai/Swash 8 times out of 10, with random criticals being the only reason the Kensai/Swash won. The DPS is just that much higher with the additonal attacks per round that a straight Kensai has access to over the Multiclass's penalty to specialization and therefore a lower DPS.
I'm not suggesting dual kits because they would be more powerful. I'm not looking to simply gain buffs - If I wanted that, I'd just mod my characters to have straight 25s in all stats and play on. Heck, I wouldn't even need a mod, I could just CULA in the books and spam those. I'm looking to gain more options. I've played Baldur's Gate II many, many times, and I don't see any logical or balancing reason to deny multiclass or dual class kits at any stage, in any number. More ways to play a game that has captured my attention and imagination for years is not too much to ask, in my opinion. It's feasible from a coding perspective (I know this because I Shadowkeeper'd the combinations into existence and the game didn't kill itself out of agony), and it doesn't impact balance that much. Yes, it will open up more options and therefore more ways to win, but it's not handing the player distinctly more powerful classes.
Xavoria, there isn't much overkill to be had. As I said, I've tested the stuffing out of this proposal, and I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't test it in the first place. Yes, further specialization is more complicated, but I'd much rather be given the choice to be a Fighter that is effective without armor when multiclassing to something that doesn't handle heavy armor well rather than be forced to deal with the standard proficiencies. There is literally no reason (overkill or otherwise) to not do this beyond time constraints and potential hard code issues that I'm not familiar with.
When you tested did you take into account, spells and traps? A Kensai/Swashbucklers abilities wouldn't be limited to solely hack and slash, whereas a Kensais is. Though I realise epic abilities is a contentious topic ultimately they should be factored in (since thats the level you tested them at). All those criticals don't count for much if your Kensai/Swashbuckler can use a timestop trap/spike trap have stoneskin, mirror image, mantle etc cast on them.
Hack and slash, sure Kensai but ultimately you use every option available to you. A Kensai/Swashbuckler would have far more options for defending themselves. To just have them dual isn't a fair gauge of which is the more powerful class and I assume having two kits as you propose wouldn't be limited to multiclass characters. So a dualclass Kensai would be capable of having full grand mastery in a weapon of their choice. A Kensai/swashbuckler is far more adaptive in melee as well, there's nothing stopping you from getting grand mastery in both halberd and two handed sword (dualclass) and using the ravager against most foes and the holy avenger against mages.
Whatever @Kitthrix' great insight on the topic is, I think it's more than balance. Kits were implemented from 3E to make BG2 more interesting. They were not meant to be merged with straight 2E multiclassing, upsetting the whole ecosystem with rogue mutations. While debate about what was "meant" by the original developers can be endless, this one is pretty obvious.
The real function of kits is likely to spice up single class, not to make it even less attractive.
The real job with kits right now is to make them work from from lvl1 to lvl30. I wouldn't even be too offset if they were removed from BG1 altogether.
@Isair The first five rounds were straight DPS, no abilities used. Kensai came out on top 4 out of 5 times. The next five rounds were using whatever abilities (Kai, Greater Whirlwind, what have you) and it was closer, but Kensai still won 4 out of 5. Beyond that, no, I did not test anything other than a straight combat situation. Traps cannot be set while hostile units are present, after all. I imagine that a Kensai/Swash would have the upper hand if he had the advantage of setting traps beforehand, but in a straight fight the pure Kensai has the clear advantage.
Yes, Dual Class Kensai/Whatevers would have access to grand mastery. That's the point of being a human: Class superiority, whereas the nonhuman races have Stat superiority. Humans are bad unless you know what you're doing. That's the status quo that I've always seen, and honestly, that's the status quo I support, because things are balanced that way.
@Cloutier You misspelled my name. Either way, Single Class is still entirely viable. You can't really beat the fact that a straight Fighter has ~2 extra attacks per round because of how Grand Mastery functions for them and how the Multiclass characters are not capable of achieving that. Granted, said straight Fighter won't be good at anything other than being a fighter, but that's kind of the point. Single classing sacrifices versatility for the sake of focus, and Multiclassing sacrifices focus for the sake of versatility. In terms of a single class vs. a multiclass in any kind of effectiveness, the single class is going to come out on top every time. A pure Fighter will be better at fighting, and a pure Thief will be better at thieving. The strength of a multiclass is being able to do a wider variety of things, and I really don't think it's too much to ask to be able to specialize those, considering that it's not something that makes the game cry tears of blood (at least in my experience) and it's not something that will disrupt balance. It will also probably improve sales, because while BG:EE has a lot of improvements that I approve of greatly, bugfixes and additional features taken from mods isn't enough to placate some. Widening class options my orders of magnitude would be a massive improvement over the base game (a direct improvement, because I've proven that the multikit classes aren't going to unbalance anything) and would attract many players that have been holding off on making a decision or said outright that it wasn't enough.
@Cloutier Sorry, but Kits were invented back in 2e. They produced the X Handbook books (Complete Fighter, Complete Wizard, etc.) that were full of kits, and ones for the various races as well. All in 2e.
@Cloutier Sorry, but Kits were invented back in 2e. They produced the X Handbook books (Complete Fighter, Complete Wizard, etc.) that were full of kits, and ones for the various races as well. All in 2e.
I don't see why there would be a problem with multi/dual kits. Each kit is supposed to be constructed as balanced with any other kit, or even with a plain class without a kit. If you combine something balanced with something else that's balanced, the result should be balanced.
@Awong The biggest problem child, actually, is the Kensai/Swashbuckler. Although he has a lower DPS than a straight Kensai, it's not lower by much. Kenswashes also have a much higher natural AC and are capable of equipping heavy armor later on (thanks to Use All Items), bolstering their defenses even further without losing the benefit of the Kensai offense. The reason that the Kenswash is so good is because the Swashbuckler is, essentially, a Fighter/Thief anyways. When you multiclass a Kensai/Swashbuckler together, you're basically getting a Fighter/Fighter/Thief. All this would take to fix is to remove the Swashbuckler AC bonuses in the event of equipping heavy armor (even with Use All Items), but it seems that people are so vehemently against it, that won't be considered and/or feasibly happen.
This is, of course, all in terms of combat effectiveness, and not even taking into account the stupid high Thief utility that comes from being able to completely ignore Hide and instead dumping everything into detect/lockpick.
@LadyRhian -- Right, in AD&D. But not in BG2 In BG2, you could either have a kit or be multi-classed. Not sure this should be changed in Enhanced Edition, especially given the way people have always exploited dual-classing with the kits.
@Isair@Xavioria I actually tested these out extensively, and made a different thread over here called Multiclassing and Such that contains full details.
As for Isair's concerns about the Kensai/Swashbuckler being more powerful, I actually tested duels between the two. The straight Kensai was often the victor, considering his abundance of attacks per round granting him higher DPS, even when the Kensai/Swash was wearing heavy armor thanks to Use All Items. In 10 rounds of testing, the Kensai won over the Kensai/Swash 8 times out of 10, with random criticals being the only reason the Kensai/Swash won. The DPS is just that much higher with the additonal attacks per round that a straight Kensai has access to over the Multiclass's penalty to specialization and therefore a lower DPS.
I'm not suggesting dual kits because they would be more powerful. I'm not looking to simply gain buffs - If I wanted that, I'd just mod my characters to have straight 25s in all stats and play on. Heck, I wouldn't even need a mod, I could just CULA in the books and spam those. I'm looking to gain more options. I've played Baldur's Gate II many, many times, and I don't see any logical or balancing reason to deny multiclass or dual class kits at any stage, in any number. More ways to play a game that has captured my attention and imagination for years is not too much to ask, in my opinion. It's feasible from a coding perspective (I know this because I Shadowkeeper'd the combinations into existence and the game didn't kill itself out of agony), and it doesn't impact balance that much. Yes, it will open up more options and therefore more ways to win, but it's not handing the player distinctly more powerful classes.
Xavoria, there isn't much overkill to be had. As I said, I've tested the stuffing out of this proposal, and I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't test it in the first place. Yes, further specialization is more complicated, but I'd much rather be given the choice to be a Fighter that is effective without armor when multiclassing to something that doesn't handle heavy armor well rather than be forced to deal with the standard proficiencies. There is literally no reason (overkill or otherwise) to not do this beyond time constraints and potential hard code issues that I'm not familiar with.
No, the game does not store more than one kit identifier, it is not possible from a code perspective. The only way to reproduce this is to add modifiers with Shadowkeeper on a kensai/thief so he recieves the pros and cons of being swashbuckler.
No, the game does not store more than one kit identifier, it is not possible from a code perspective. The only way to reproduce this is to add modifiers with Shadowkeeper on a kensai/thief so he recieves the pros and cons of being swashbuckler.
That is exactly what I did when testing, yes. My point was that the game did not start crying when I had kit identifiers on Multiclass characters.
That is exactly what I did when testing, yes. My point was that the game did not start crying when I had kit identifiers on Multiclass characters.
Okay, I see. The problem with having two kits though is that it's hardcoded for only one kit. I think it's too time consuming and too small a priority for the developers to ever be changed.
@IchigoRXC wow... I guess if a mod could do it, then the Devs shouldn't have much of a problem lol. I was never against this idea. Some kits seem like a natural thing that doesn't take much studying, but other kits sound like you study like crazy, so from a role playing perspective, I think I'm going to choose a double kit, only if it's more of a "This is the nature of" as opposed to "Due to the training of"
I think this becomes an argument that it's there if you want it, and if you're against it, then just ignore it.
I would be pretty happy if I could actually dual INTO a kit from a pure class. I don't see why you can start with a kit and dual into a pure class but not the other way around.
Sure. Dual / Multi kit is OP. But then again, BG is a very tough game. At least me, I died all the time, even on easy modes. Party members died ALL the time. Vanished into complete disintegration even. Gaxx, Draconis, Demogorgon are soo OP. Miniature giant space hamsters are OP. So what? I still like em all.
Sure. Dual / Multi kit is OP. But then again, BG is a very tough game. At least me, I died all the time, even on easy modes. Party members died ALL the time. Vanished into complete disintegration even. Gaxx, Draconis, Demogorgon are soo OP. Miniature giant space hamsters are OP. So what? I still like em all.
This is probably the only point that's been made so far that makes me reconsider the idea of allowing the kits the full range of access to multi/dual-class combos. I'm sure there are some combinations of kits that would help out in some of the tougher fights.
I just think it would be awesome to have the option to do it... I just don't know if it would be right to have the option for NPCs to do it unless if they were bosses of some kind
Comments
As for the rest of it, I would think dualling into a kit would be a nice change and also having a kit in multiclassing would be cool. I usually grant one kit to multiclassed characters using Level1Npcs.
The Swashbuckler kit also erases the Kensai's no-armor penalty. You'd get an initial -3AC and then an additional -1AC every five levels. And then, as stated, you eventually get use any item, which effectively makes the character a strong tank as well as a superior fighter. I think that's a big reason why kits weren't meant to be mixed and matched. It's too easy to min and max. Still, it's easy to add these advantages in an editor if you want them...though I think I said that already.
@Isair: I like the idea of dual classing and picking up another kit...that makes sense to me. Particularly if you didn't pick a kit with your first class.
However the only reason that the idea of two kits is suggested is because they'll be powerful, more powerful than other classes. That's why they're appealing, it's not really a matter of balence. I've played BG1 though in Tutu as a Kensai and even then their shortfallings are easily overcome. Potions are expensive but once you've completed Durlags Tower you've more gold than you know what to do with. Potions of defence aren't overly costly and provide -10 to your AC. There is also spells such as barkskin and items such as the Shield Amulet.
If you have a Kensai/Swashbuckler you're not actually losing anything with the addition of Swashbuckler, if your character is a multiclass - you can't advance past specialized. It's exactly the same for any multi fighter/thief. What you gain is an additional to hit bonuses, damage and AC. You're basically just a more powerful Kensai with lower AC, Thief skills and later on the ability to use any item - Armor, spells etc.
Who'd win in a battle between a Kensai & a Kensai/Swashbuckler? Always the latter.
If one kit multiclasses/dualclasses were introduced it'd open the door for alot of interesting combinations without tipping the balence.
But on a serious note, I think one kit per multi/dual sounds better and less confusing. I wouldn't mind if it was double kitted though... it's just that having two kits is a bit... overkill, isn't it? I mean you're having double specializations... that are both further specialized. Honestly, for those of you who vote yes on two kits, don't you guys think that's a bit overkill? Not just in a balance factor but also in roleplaying factor?
I actually tested these out extensively, and made a different thread over here called Multiclassing and Such that contains full details.
As for Isair's concerns about the Kensai/Swashbuckler being more powerful, I actually tested duels between the two. The straight Kensai was often the victor, considering his abundance of attacks per round granting him higher DPS, even when the Kensai/Swash was wearing heavy armor thanks to Use All Items. In 10 rounds of testing, the Kensai won over the Kensai/Swash 8 times out of 10, with random criticals being the only reason the Kensai/Swash won. The DPS is just that much higher with the additonal attacks per round that a straight Kensai has access to over the Multiclass's penalty to specialization and therefore a lower DPS.
I'm not suggesting dual kits because they would be more powerful. I'm not looking to simply gain buffs - If I wanted that, I'd just mod my characters to have straight 25s in all stats and play on. Heck, I wouldn't even need a mod, I could just CULA in the books and spam those. I'm looking to gain more options. I've played Baldur's Gate II many, many times, and I don't see any logical or balancing reason to deny multiclass or dual class kits at any stage, in any number. More ways to play a game that has captured my attention and imagination for years is not too much to ask, in my opinion. It's feasible from a coding perspective (I know this because I Shadowkeeper'd the combinations into existence and the game didn't kill itself out of agony), and it doesn't impact balance that much. Yes, it will open up more options and therefore more ways to win, but it's not handing the player distinctly more powerful classes.
Xavoria, there isn't much overkill to be had. As I said, I've tested the stuffing out of this proposal, and I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't test it in the first place. Yes, further specialization is more complicated, but I'd much rather be given the choice to be a Fighter that is effective without armor when multiclassing to something that doesn't handle heavy armor well rather than be forced to deal with the standard proficiencies. There is literally no reason (overkill or otherwise) to not do this beyond time constraints and potential hard code issues that I'm not familiar with.
Hack and slash, sure Kensai but ultimately you use every option available to you. A Kensai/Swashbuckler would have far more options for defending themselves. To just have them dual isn't a fair gauge of which is the more powerful class and I assume having two kits as you propose wouldn't be limited to multiclass characters. So a dualclass Kensai would be capable of having full grand mastery in a weapon of their choice. A Kensai/swashbuckler is far more adaptive in melee as well, there's nothing stopping you from getting grand mastery in both halberd and two handed sword (dualclass) and using the ravager against most foes and the holy avenger against mages.
The real function of kits is likely to spice up single class, not to make it even less attractive.
The real job with kits right now is to make them work from from lvl1 to lvl30. I wouldn't even be too offset if they were removed from BG1 altogether.
Yes, Dual Class Kensai/Whatevers would have access to grand mastery. That's the point of being a human: Class superiority, whereas the nonhuman races have Stat superiority. Humans are bad unless you know what you're doing. That's the status quo that I've always seen, and honestly, that's the status quo I support, because things are balanced that way.
@Cloutier You misspelled my name. Either way, Single Class is still entirely viable. You can't really beat the fact that a straight Fighter has ~2 extra attacks per round because of how Grand Mastery functions for them and how the Multiclass characters are not capable of achieving that. Granted, said straight Fighter won't be good at anything other than being a fighter, but that's kind of the point. Single classing sacrifices versatility for the sake of focus, and Multiclassing sacrifices focus for the sake of versatility. In terms of a single class vs. a multiclass in any kind of effectiveness, the single class is going to come out on top every time. A pure Fighter will be better at fighting, and a pure Thief will be better at thieving. The strength of a multiclass is being able to do a wider variety of things, and I really don't think it's too much to ask to be able to specialize those, considering that it's not something that makes the game cry tears of blood (at least in my experience) and it's not something that will disrupt balance. It will also probably improve sales, because while BG:EE has a lot of improvements that I approve of greatly, bugfixes and additional features taken from mods isn't enough to placate some. Widening class options my orders of magnitude would be a massive improvement over the base game (a direct improvement, because I've proven that the multikit classes aren't going to unbalance anything) and would attract many players that have been holding off on making a decision or said outright that it wasn't enough.
The biggest problem child, actually, is the Kensai/Swashbuckler. Although he has a lower DPS than a straight Kensai, it's not lower by much. Kenswashes also have a much higher natural AC and are capable of equipping heavy armor later on (thanks to Use All Items), bolstering their defenses even further without losing the benefit of the Kensai offense. The reason that the Kenswash is so good is because the Swashbuckler is, essentially, a Fighter/Thief anyways. When you multiclass a Kensai/Swashbuckler together, you're basically getting a Fighter/Fighter/Thief. All this would take to fix is to remove the Swashbuckler AC bonuses in the event of equipping heavy armor (even with Use All Items), but it seems that people are so vehemently against it, that won't be considered and/or feasibly happen.
This is, of course, all in terms of combat effectiveness, and not even taking into account the stupid high Thief utility that comes from being able to completely ignore Hide and instead dumping everything into detect/lockpick.
I would like to make a monk/sorceror.
This is all.
I think this becomes an argument that it's there if you want it, and if you're against it, then just ignore it.
IF it gets implemented in some way lol.