Fallen Paladin/Ranger/Blackguard and limits on proficiences

Astafas

Shouldn't a Fallen Paladin/Ranger/Blackguard be able to put up to five profs in any weapon? Aren't they treated as a Fighter?

I currently have a fallen blackguard in my party that gets cleric spells he/she can't cast, and seems to be limited to Specialisation (**).

Mitchfork

Being fallen is supposed to be a punishment, so you don't gain anything for being fallen.

Astafas

I suddenly regret a certain choice very much. Apparently the character in question will still have the old, slower progression as well... Don't know where I read that a Fallen Whatever looses all special abilities and is treated as an ordinary Fighter.

HandofTyr

It was probably someone making an off the cuff comment. They are basically a fighter- as in a dude with a sword and no special abilities, but they don't get the few perks fighters get.

FinneousPJ

Yes, your character went to paladin* school when younger. When he lost his special abilities, he didn't suddenly gain the abilities of someone who trained instead at fighter school. That wouldn't make much sense, now would it?

*or whatever

[Deleted User]

On the plus side, said fallen Blackguard still seems to get access to the Fallen Deva HLA (guess fallen folks gotta stick together).

jackjack

@FinneousPJ - I bet all the teachers at Paladin school are way too strict.

FinneousPJ

@jackjack I bet they do nasty stuff with the altar boys.

Astafas

FinneousPJ said:

Yes, your character went to paladin* school when younger. When he lost his special abilities, he didn't suddenly gain the abilities of someone who trained instead at fighter school. That wouldn't make much sense, now would it?

*or whatever

No, I wasn't after redistributing the points but to add new points when he/she levels up. It makes sense that someone who exclusively swings, let's say twohanded swords, does indeed get better with handling them over time.

RedWizard

Astafas said:

I suddenly regret a certain choice very much. Apparently the character in question will still have the old, slower progression as well... Don't know where I read that a Fallen Whatever looses all special abilities and is treated as an ordinary Fighter.

The good thing is that you can always kick said character for everyone's favorite ToB fighter. Surely no amount of rp can cover the absolute gimp status that is being a fallen paladin/blackguard.
It'd be far better to start again/dual to fighter without ever gaining your pally/blackguard abilities back since by the point said npc falls it literally takes what... 1/100000000000 XP to level from Fighter 1>9+ than Paladin/Blackguard 12>13+ for example. Being Fallen is a punishment, but frankly there should be nothing preventing you from starting again or taking levels in another class assuming you don't care about your former status anymore but oh well... 2e rules.

Astafas

Yeah, I'll change to that NPC the moment I get there. Korgan is nice too. Well, actually, anyone of the warrior classes will do. :-D

karnor00

According to the 2ED Players Handbook, a fallen paladin becomes an ordinary fighter but without weapon specialisation.

Weapon specialisation was originally (in the 2ED PHB) a fighter only benefit, but various optional rules extended this to other warrior classes (such as paladins and rangers) and instead gave fighters extended specialisation (right up to grand mastery). Which means that fallen paladins don't get the extended specialisation.

It's probably worth mentioning that a fallen paladin will use the fighter experience table for future advancement. At the moment they fall their level remains unchanged and their current experience total is adjusted accordingly (i.e. so they don't level up when they fall).

[Deleted User]

I find it amusing that fallen paladins/blackguards being reduced to the status of baseline 2e fighters is referred to as being "gimped." Not that I disagree with the assertion that 2e shortchanges fighters...

shawne

Eh, falling is a punishment - if they could be converted to regular fighters and achieve Grandmastery, you'd have no reason to adhere to any alignment-based morality at all.

Silverstar

HandofTyr said:

It was probably someone making an off the cuff comment.

Nono. I know what he's referring to. I don't currently have it on hand, but the old BG manual did indeed state that fallen Paladins/Rangers get treated as Fighters; it also did spesifically point out the bit about not getting the Fighter weapon proficiencies though. The new manual has the entire thing worded in a way that makes this much more clear however as there's no reference to Fighters:

Mastering Melee and Magic said:

Players of Paladins and Rangers must watch their reputation carefully. If at any time the party's reputation falls below 6, Paladins lose their class abilities; if the reputation falls below 4, Rangers lose theirs. In either case, if the reputation of the party falls below the acceptable level, that character becomes "Fallen".

Note: Blackguards, a Paladin class kit, are not subject to this restriction and may have as low a reputation as they desire.

the_spyder

karnor00 said:

According to the 2ED Players Handbook, axallen paladin becomes an ordinary fighter but without weapon specialisation.

Weapon specialisation was originally (in the 2ED PHB) a fighter only benefit, but various optional rules extended this to other warrior classes (such as paladins and rangers) and instead gave fighters extended specialisation (right up to grand mastery). Which means that fallen paladins don't get the extended specialisation.

It's probably worth mentioning that a fallen paladin will use the fighter experience table for future advancement. At the moment they fall their level remains unchanged and their current experience total is adjusted accordingly (i.e. so they don't level up when they fall).

If I remember the passage correctly, it goes on to say "...... But with a slower xp progression and minus any benefits"

It is intended to be a punishment and the player is supposed to want to get back what they lost.

Pantalion

The moment falling as a Ranger/Paladin gives the opportunity for Fighter abilities is the moment entire scores of players start strategically falling just before completing their Stronghold quests to Grandmaster up their weapons of choice.

Not that a Grandmaster'd Staff Stalker -> Cleric wouldn't be awesome of course.