Defeating Firkraag without cheating, What am I doing wrong?

Mattly99

Ok so I've tried to beat this overgrown dragon a couple of dozen times now, and I don't get what I am doing wrong. For some reason he seems completely immune to my party's weapons. I cast breach 4 times to get rid of his Stoneskin but the critical hits my party lands doesn't do any physical damage. Two things I find wrong with it, first I can do physical damage to him right before he becomes hostile. I almost destroyed him this way but it was too cheap with him not fighting back. Second, one time I was able to do physical damage to him but have been unable to recreate the steps to do it. My current party my level 10 Paladin with Lilarcro, Minsc dual-wielding +3 flail of ages and frostreaver +3, Jaheria dual-wielding comparable weapons. THACO 0 for my Paladin, 3-5 minsc, 5-9 Jaheria. I also cast doom and greater malison. Am I doing something wrong or is there a bug with Stoneskin not disappearing? Magic missile seems to work ok after two lower resists on him. Thanks in advance.

kryptix

He went down pretty straight forward when I took him this time slightly lower level than you but I had to prebuff...

I used my sequencers etc to kill the Mage next to him then I just smacked him down with imp hasted frost reaver or maybe that dragon slayer long sword and belm...

Remember to secret word etc and then breach for protection from magic weapons. If it's just stone skin the elemental damage on your weapons would still go through. I think he may also have mantle.

Either way I tried a few remove magics too for good measure and I had fire electable tanking with my fire immune Charname. Jahiera was using sling of eversed with imp haste.

Cheesy way to kill him is get tanks in then dooms and malison and lower resist then chromatic orb or finger of death til he dies.

Mythdracon

Lower Resistance helps. The mages, if put at the right distance from the dragon, should be able to cast without being blown away by his wing buffet (though you might want to hastily retreat after that). I cast Lower Resistance on him 3 times, then Chromatic Orbed/Magic Missiled him to death. Minsc did a lot of damage to him also.

(That said, on that attempt, I only managed to Badly injure Fikraag, not kill him. I killed him later using the cheesy dialogue exploit).

Mattly99

Thank you very much. Secret word was the key. I only saw him casting Stoneskin and figured that's all he had for a buff, I didn't realize he had some other buff on that breach would not penetrate, but secret word did. I did everything else right including buffing with protection against fire, protection against evil, minor sequencing magic missle, blessed armor and haste, etc, but secret word was the key. I tried dispelling his haste once and must have dispelled that protection once before without realizing. He now lies dead at my feet without me "cheesing" it. Much appreciated. Now I'm off to kill the shadow dragon.

unkinhead

A single summoned creature helps a lot, gives you a little bit of time to get some extra damage in, I too always wondered why the fuq i could never touch dragons in general, i gotta try secret word now

I honestly don't recall how i beat him this time, it was somewhat cheesy as i used a limited wish scroll to stop time and get him down to "Injured-Badly Injured" though.

enqenq

I'm skeptical that Secret Word is some miracle spell against Firkraag, more likely you're not getting rid of the Stoneskin because the game thinks it's ok that many mobs can just recast it a little here and there without a need to announce it, let alone let it be their only spell that round. I mean it's only immunity against up to 10 attacks, on a target that's hard to hit to begin with, and one that will readily knock your fighters out of melee range so they can't even try. Not a big deal.

Mitchfork

Breach actually doesn't work on any of the dragons' Stoneskins- you have to use something that removes spell protections to get rid of it (Secret Word, Pierce Magic, etc.). I dunno why this wasn't changed for the Enhanced Editions, it seems like a bug to me.

nano

Huh... you're right, their stoneskin is a spell protection. Looks like it's fixed in SCS, but they also use Spell Deflection there so Secret Word is still necessary.

Mattly99

It threw me off since the spell description for Breach specifically included Stoneskin under "combat protections" but for some reason dragons have a spell protection version of it? Unless this is a bug. I can promise you casting "secret word" is what fixed it so I could do physical damage to Firkraag. but if you don't believe me try it yourself. Flail of Ages would show the elemental damage minus fire and I would see critical hit messages but no damage posted after, just the line and the voiced line for critical hits. Note, dispel magic might play a random chance at dispelling it too. If it's a bug though should I post it under Bugs forum?

Mitchfork

This was actually a holdover from vanilla BG2, the dragon Stoneskins have always worked like that. I view it as a bug, probably to do with the scripting that controls the casting, but it could be intended behavior- I find it hard to believe that it was just forgotten about when BG2:EE was being made.

I figured this out when I was fighting the Black Dragon in Suldanessellar- I was getting wiped for 3-4 reloads despite playing intelligently and reacting to his buffs with counterspells. As soon as I cast Pierce Magic at the start of the fight, he went down easily.

kryptix

I'm playing with SCS and I'm just treating them like big mages with less spell protections and they seem pretty straight forwards.

Just wondering if I can take adalon after I get her quest exp... I would have saved the time stop scroll for her for my fighter Mage to use except neera could already cast it...

Lathlaer

I think the dragons are too easy as it is. Let them have their ubreachable stoneskins

nano

Secret Word is a lower level than Breach though, this actually makes them easier if you're aware of it

I find dragons pretty tough myself. Their spell defenses aren't much to speak of. It's their massive HP/AC/thac0/damage that makes scary. They're more like giant fire breathing hasted warriors than mages...

kryptix

That's why I'm going to try imp haste + critical strikes on adalon while blue to see if I can get her real fast after I hand in the quest...

Lathlaer

The truth is that once you get Improved Whirlwinds and have at least two fighters in your party, most of the dragons become a joke. I mean, the one in Suldanessellar didn't last more than two rounds (and I didn't even remove his protections). The one in Watcher's Keep and in Rasaad's quest as well.

Firkraag and Shadow Dragon may pose some threat but it's only because you're much lower level when you face them. After that it's breeze. Not sure about Draconis, I keep hearing he's a nightmare but I'll have to see how he handles my Druid.

Lathlaer

Also - what do you define as cheating? Is starting combat through dialogue with him and then removing his spell resistance, casting greater malison and finishing with Finger of Death considered cheating? Or - with same setup - landing a succesful Feeblemind? Or coming near him to land a succesful Nature's Beauty to blind him?

Or is only melee/ranged warrior fighting while mage stands back and casts only buffs/breach/secret word allowed?

nano

I try for a consistent strategy, one that will work every time and doesn't rely on luck or reloading. So I never use stuff like Finger of Death/Feeblemind. I don't think it's cheating or anything, it just feels wrong to me, like I didn't earn the victory through superior tactics and just won by a fluke.

If you need HLAs to beat an SoA opponent I consider that pretty hard

You shouldn't need to be that high of a level considering those were introduced in ToB.

Lathlaer

It's hard not to be HLA level by the end of SoA unless you have a party of 6 very early I usually run with 4 - maximum 5 people.

For instance, with my Druid I didn't do Trademeet and Druid Grove until I was level 14 for roleplaying reasons. So I did almost everything before with a party of 4. Then I decided to have also Rasaad in my party, so I did most of Chapter 2 with a very small group. I expect to have my first HLA before Suldanessellar. People who solo or duo have to try hard not gain HLA by that time.

And being a level 14 druid, I technically achieved maximum level in SoA and I'm not even in Chapter 3.

Besides, Nature's Beauty doesn't offer save against blindness, so, you know - it's no luck, it's pure power

nano

Yeah but they weren't designed to be fought with HLAs, so I think it should be quite possible to beat them without them. HLAs come after the SoA exp cap. There's nothing wrong at all with outleveling the encounter and beating it with brute force but it's not too satisfying for me... feels a bit like removing the exp cap in BG1 and destroying Sarevok that way.

But mostly I struggle with Firkraag because he's so early. I imagine that's one you tackle before HLAs as well. Dealing enough damage is my biggest problem, his AC and health means it takes a long time to bring him down and the longer the fight drags on the harder it becomes.

I've tried Nature's Beauty on later dragons but it didn't seem effective to me. The dragon somehow found a way to hit me anyways . I chalked it up to SCS AI and its way of finding you "by touch" but I should take another look.

Lathlaer

That's usually my dilemma when I decide if I want to have it super easy in SoA or somewhat easier in Watcher's Keep. When I do the first without the latter, I usually find the Keep in the beginning of ToB a bit too easy.

Anyway, Firkraag let my warriors and fire elementals pound him without even fighting back after Nature's Beauty. Maybe it's really something about SCS, although those dragons that are capable, should cast Heal immediately - I mean, being hit from every side and not seeing your enemies? Without any reaction? Huh.

Dungeonnoob

I used 2 tanks 1 on 1 with Firkraag, so i could hit him with my my lightning rod.My tanks was Minsc and Groom DD,when 1 of my tanks was badly injured they switched turn so the other 1 could heal up wasn't flawless though not all had fear immunity lol,keyword here though is lightning rod.

kryptix

Improved haste and speed weapon > Firkraag...

Just have viconia etc spam skeleton warriors to tank.

nano

Jeez, you guys all take him straight up in melee? I'll see how it goes this run, but he seriously hits like a train full of trains and none of my "tanks" can tank him long enough to kill him before he kills them. I'm currently thinking ranged is the way to go. If I dispel his haste via arrow I can kite him around and pelt him with missiles until he goes down, BG1 style.

I found the answer to the Nature's Beauty thing - he's actually immune to blindness. That's likely an SCS change. I think the reasoning is that dragons can overcome invisibility via other senses (smell, sound) so they can also overcome blindness the same way.

Skeleton warriors die very fast to dragon breath in my experience, because it bypasses magic resistance.

kryptix

My tanks have pfmw

Fighter illusionist and simulacrum

nano

Yeah, mine are regular NPCs

Dream_Maker

There is always the "traps on blue circle" technique, followed by a backstab to start the fight while having your tanks ready to take hits and mages start removing protections and lowering magic resistance from a safe distance. Of course have all your characters boosted by haste and every other group protection/boost you can beforehand (blessing, resist fear, etc...).

That allows you to start with a big advantage, but yeah when he starts attacking you really need to kill him fast unless you have really powerful characters, otherwise he will make a short work of your tanks. I actually found magic to be generally more reliable at dealing damage than weapons once he's down on protections, so spam magic missiles after following the above tactic and you should get him at some point.

I don't know if the above is considered "cheating" since you basically take advantage of the fact that he won't attack you first to set up everything properly, but it sure is efficient.

nano

I feel bad for shooting down everyone's suggestions and I have no idea if your advice is directed at me, but if it is I want to point out that SCS dragons get angry if you start trapping up their lair. Which makes sense, really. You make a great point about magic though. They have few spell defenses besides resistance so spamming low level spells should do a lot of damage.

kryptix

nano said:

I feel bad for shooting down everyone's suggestions and I have no idea if your advice is directed at me, but if it is I want to point out that SCS dragons get angry if you start trapping up their lair. Which makes sense, really. You make a great point about magic though. They have few spell defenses besides resistance so spamming low level spells should do a lot of damage.

I guess the non cheese yet still reliable way to kill him is to spam a round of malison and doom and lower resistance followed by 3-4 sequencers of chromatic orb, odds are he will roll a 1 and die...

iavasechui

I usually just buff up go in and hope for the best.... I usually end up slaughtered XD But sometimes I get lucky. One time I went ahead and tried because I wanted to get everything possible before spellhold taken care of and after a long and chaotic battle Nalia dealt the finishing blow and earned herself a spot in my party for the rest of that playthrough. I had only really had her around to do her quest since I was rotating the final slot but after dealing the final blow to a red dragon that had already killed half the party I say she earned it.

Dream_Maker

nano said:

I feel bad for shooting down everyone's suggestions and I have no idea if your advice is directed at me, but if it is I want to point out that SCS dragons get angry if you start trapping up their lair. Which makes sense, really. You make a great point about magic though. They have few spell defenses besides resistance so spamming low level spells should do a lot of damage.

I was originally responding to the thread creator, I play without mods so I don't know anything about SCS rules... So yup my advice might not apply for everyone.

But yeah this tactic I described is a pretty cheesy way to win and very hard to justify on a roleplay perspective. I was assuming at first that by "cheating" the thread creator was referring to clua console commands or the like. I totally understand though why the trapping before starting the fight thing might be seen as a "cheat" by some players, which is why I left a mention about that at the end of my message.

It's one of the many ways to defeat Fikraag, so I hope it might help some people here! Saw some great suggestions in this thread though, will have to try that for other runs.

stormy35

kryptix is spot on.

All you need is 2x lower resis preferably cast by 2 mages at the same time or just one by one. It doesn't make a lot of difference.
After that, proceed to cast a greater malison (and/or doom) if you have it. That should allow you to successfully cast finger of death (lv6) or just chromatic orbs (level1) or magic missiles (level1) launched from a minor sequencer.

There's no high tech stuffs involved. Just make sure you cast protect from fire (level 2 or 3) and resis fear.

The first thing Firkraag will cast is a dispel magic so bring in your thief to bait it out in the corner without having it affecting your buffed frontliners. Bring Dorn, he has the aura of despair and drain life, both of which are pretty good against dragons.

If you are seriously having problems, lay some traps before the battle (7) and/or cast some skull traps some distance away from the dragon. Start the battle by casting 2 lower resis and then lure the dragon to the traps/skull traps.

Hope it helps!