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Fighter/Mage/Thief vs Mage/Thief (for full BGEE/BG2EE playthrough)

FaydarkFaydark Member Posts: 279
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
So, I've got my cleric/mage, sorcerer, wild mage ready for BG2EE playthroughs, and I'm trying to decide between f/m/t and m/t for my next playthrough. I'm having trouble discerning what the fighter part of the multiclass brings over the m/t version.

f/m/t brings:
- better thac0
- more proficiency points
- better hitpoints
- I am pretty sure it gets extra attacks per round, but I'm not sure on the exact details, anyone care to fill me in please?

f/m/t loses:
- mage HLAs, even if xp cap is removed (though I have found a mod that "fixes" this within the framework of what the engine allows).

m/t brings:
- full mage HLAs
- more mage spell slots
- faster progression

m/t loses:
- fighter HLAs
- the other fighter bonuses already mentioned (hp, thac0 etc)

In most discussions I've seen about things like this, people mention using tensers to get the fighter thac0 when you want it etc.. but I'd prefer to leave that possibility out of the discussion (I'd be using the spell slots for other spells normally etc).

I'm not considering the dual class thief -> mage etc, because I'd like to get some of the thief HLAs eventually (Use any item springs to mind for this concept).

Thanks for any advice!
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Comments

  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    Unless your party consists of three or less, go for the M/T (or Ill/T).
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    edited December 2013
    Fighters do gain an extra half attack per round at levels 7 and 13 and multiclass fighter does get Specialization which gives an extra half attack... Mind you these are fighter levels, not total level.

    And without mods triple classes cant get HLAs as far as I know.
  • FrozenCellsFrozenCells Member Posts: 385
    Basically, the fighter part is essentially free until ToB and augments your backstab as well as improving your combat damage output a lot.

    At the SoA level cap, the M/T is I think level 13/16 and the F/M/T is 11/12/14. So...it's one mage level behind, two thief levels behind, which is pretty inconsequential, but on the other hand it has 11 fighter levels. Pretty good trade-off. In ToB there's more of a discussion to be had because the F/M/T doesnt get level 9/10 spells, and it even has to wait a long time for level 8s. However it has access to the Fighter HLAs and it gets more HLAs due to more level-ups, so it depends on if you want to play a more backstab/melee orientated character or a more magical one (M/T).

    Since I don't enjoy ToB as much as BG1/BG2SoA and because it's a smaller chunk of the playthrough, it's a complete no-brainer to pick a F/M/T.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Are you solo or using a party?

    Assuming party: it depends how you want to play. The F/M/T is more of an augmented fighter, using mage spells to protect himself and backstabbing or chopping up everything, etc. The M/T is more of a utility caster based on my experience with Jan. In theory you can buff him to become good at melee but it's a royal pain in the ass to do it every time IMO. He runs around and breaks illusions, assassinates specific targets with traps or backstabs and brings some spell power (though not as much as a pure mage).
  • FaydarkFaydark Member Posts: 279
    I think my sweet spot lately has been party of 3, with extras as needed for specific quests etc.

    I went and looked up the full xp tables (the BG2:EE manual only has up to 160k xp.. ?) and figured out more of the technical details for myself (thanks for the advice above @Kaltzor and @FrozenCells )

    I think I might go with Mage / Thief first. It can have proficiency in a bunch of the weapons I was looking at using, and with mage buffs could be "decent" at melee when I'm not casting.

    Now I'm thinking about dual classing instead.. off to do more reading.

    Thanks for the help everyone.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    I'll toss in my vote for Gnome Illusionist/Thief.
  • FaydarkFaydark Member Posts: 279
    Ok, so dual classing gives me better mage progression. But I lose thief HLAs completely, which may or may not matter.. I'm not sure ;)

    Looking through the thief HLAs, I think the only ones that catch my eye are Use Any Item and possibly some of the traps. While the other Thief HLAs would be nice, I feel certain I wouldn't miss them.

    So the choice basically boils down to: Use Any Item (T/M Multiclass) or faster progression & better mage spells ( T -> M dual class).

    Thoughts?
  • kryptixkryptix Member Posts: 741
    Thief levels fast enough in a three man party to consider going pure thief til UAI then dual, you would get UAI mid chapter 2... Dual would complete near the end of SOA if you go and men every scroll you see by stealing them.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    So, Jan or Imoen?

    For a small party I'd go with Jan.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Shorty saves with bonus spells? Gimme Jan.
  • FaydarkFaydark Member Posts: 279
    Haha, yeah that's basically what it comes down to nano =D

    I like playing casters mainly. While I used to like sorcerer the most, lately I've been swinging back around to mage again. I like the utility.

    But, I didn't have as much fun playing the Wild Mage or Sorcerer as I thought I would, given that melee was basically a "why bother" and standing around with a sling or throwing daggers was pretty dull as well.

    That's why I'm considering some form of mage multiclass for my next playthrough. I'd still like the mage part to be decent, but I'm willing to consider replacing some mage functionality with items or abilities (eg, thief traps). I'd like to be able to do some ranged combat and some melee combat.. as the situation allows.

    Any comments on Use Any Item? Is it a game changer for a Mage/Thief multi? I don't fancy playing through a bunch of BG2 as a pure thief just to get UAI, so if I go the dual class route I'll probably be dualing from thief once I have enough points in find traps/open locks/pickpocket/detect illusion and set traps. I'll probably ignore hide in shadows pretty much (replace with invis etc).

    Thanks.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I feel UAI doesn't do much for a mage because mages don't really depend on their gear... magic can take care of just about anything and the best item (robe of Vecna) is yours already. But it lets you use the reflection shield which is kind of useful situationally.

    With Jan I think his time traps are the best part. They trigger faster than you can ever cast Time Stop and they don't cost a level 9 slot so you can have fun killing enemies before they can put up any protections. The problem with Jan is that doesn't level fast enough in a full party to get level 9 spells, or if he does the game is almost over already. In a small party that's not a problem.

    A dual like Imoen plays pretty much like a mage. She doesn't really have enough thief abilities to be thiefy outside of picking a couple locks and traps, and I don't think that's what you're looking for.

    Maybe you should look into a fighter > mage dual, like the infamous K/M. 9 levels of fighter is enough to make melee a significant component without sacrificing any casting ability.
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 785
    edited December 2013
    I also considered both. In the end it really comes down to what your play style is. I like the versatility of the F/M/T as a main character.

    Pros:
    - Access to F/M/T HLAs
    - Up to 1.5 more attacks
    - Down to 8 less base THAC0
    - Can reach 18/00 STR at creation
    - HP bonus
    - 20 HLAs vs. 19

    Cons:
    - Slower levelling
    - Max level 18/17/22 vs 20/28
    - No access to level 9 spells (and related HLAs)

    UAI really isn't necessary, just cherry on the cake. Notable items you could use:
    - Melodic Chain (AC 2)
    - Wondrous Gloves (+1 THAC0/AC, bonus spells 2/3/4)
  • FaydarkFaydark Member Posts: 279
    I've decided to do both. My first character through the original BG was a FMT and I've been wanting to recreate that in BG:EE.

    But since my M/T was the most progressed playthrough of the two already, I've decided to finish that off first.
  • FaydarkFaydark Member Posts: 279
    @Pantalion thanks for that awesome breakdown. Hopefully future googlers will come across it as one of their first hits =D

    I do have the xp cap removed (I hit the cap all the time in BG1, so I now play with it removed. I hate not progressing in RPG's while playing =D).

    From what I understand from this thread ( http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/26198/experience-cap-remover-and-new-high-level-ability-pools-for-f-m-c-and-f-m-t ), fmt do have HLA access in the unmodded BG2:EE, but only to fighter and thief pools.

    For BG2:EE I will probably use that mod (XP cap remover and adds a couple of the mage HLAs for FMT), but I don't think it will be as much of a game changer as it is for BG1, I'm not sure I'll hit the 8 million cap for a couple of playthroughs anyway till I get my "ideal" party sorted out.

    Thanks for the help!
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    @Dee iffvyreszcwg posted some spam here.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    I hope that's not the beginning of some new, clearly awful trend :(
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,847
    I wouldn't worry about it. Mods have always been good about destroying spam-bots like these.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    For me MT and FMT and two completely different characters.
    MT is played mostly like mage with added utility from the thief side
    FMT is played mostly like a F/T (huge backstabs (critical strike), very strong in melee) with extra buffs from the mage side.

    Therefore comparing both seems difficult to me.
    That being said, since mages are 10 times stronger than the other classes by the end game (thanks to level 9 spells), the MT ends up being significantly more powerful.


    As for MT multi or dual :
    Thief 5 will net you all the really useful utility (find/disarm traps). Therefore you can basically play as a normal mage. You will miss some fun with the thief tools (backstab, traps).
    You can also chose to dual later (theif 13 for x5 backstab?) with almost no impact on your mage power but getting back to mage 14 can be painful.

    The issue anyway is that you will get no specialization which is a big drawback.

    Because of that a gnome thief/illusionnist will end up with almost as much spells / day than a 5/31 mage (losing 1 level 7/8/9 while having 1 more from 1-5).
    At the same time he will be a complete thief (traps, x5 backstab, UAI).
    Therefore my preference would go for the gnome thief/illusionist (much better saving throws being also a nice feat)











  • ArdulArdul Member Posts: 211
    edited January 2014
    You can also use carsomyr on a fmt, which I think is rather neat :p
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Ardul said:

    You can also use carsomyr on a fmt, which I think is rather neat :p

    M/T can use Carsomyr too, you don't have to be proficient to take advantage of +50% MR.

  • ArdulArdul Member Posts: 211
    I of course realise that, so what I should have written is that you can do it with the added benefits of specialization and fighter attacks. It might not be the highest dps build, but I love that you can use a weapon that should be off-limits.
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    Ugh, I want a FMT, but it would take forever to get ++ in bows (of any sort), and then ++ longsword, ++ shortsword, ++ TWF =/ getting fighter level 12 on them would be a pain. And I don't know how well they'd hold up in early BGEE without ranged weapons.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    as a FMT, i guess you play solo or in a small party.
    In solo, you gain levels quickly and therefore ranged weapon is less critical, especially with backstab.
    Personally as a FMT i take quarterstaff ++, 2 handed weap +, bow +.

  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @mumumomo

    Honestly, I'm a little demented in that I'd still play one in a full party ><
  • FaydarkFaydark Member Posts: 279
    edited January 2014
    I'm in the midst of taking my FMT through BG1:EE at the moment, and he has no problems being in melee even without stoneskin etc. I'm doing a duo with a Ranger/Cleric, who plays the "tank", but the fmt is perfectly at home tanking as well now that I have some better equipment.

    I started him off with one pip in longsword, one pip in longbow and two pips in two weapon fighting. At the start of the game, I used longbow wherever possible, switching to a single longsword when I "had to" melee.

    Once I had Varscona and a +1 longsword, I switched to dual wielding as the main damage and kept longbow for those few points in the game where ranged attacks are very beneficial. (It's a pita to switch between dual wielding and ranged attacks.. so I don't do it often).

    I think I have him geared with Balduran's helm, archmage robe, +1 ring atm. With his good dex, he has a negative AC and only really has to worry about buffs for the bigger fights. When I need those buffs, I use ghost armor and mirror image for AC and he takes very little damage.

    I haven't gone through TotSC content yet, still puttering around in BG city atm, but I don't forsee any issues.

    It's very fun, and I can't wait to get him into BG2 where he can use all the cool weapons that go to waste because of the NPC's I like to run with =D

    Having said that, I think that the M/T will be the better option for my playstyle in BG2 with the npc's I usually play with. I don't really like using Jan, and Imoen can't advance as a thief (so miss out on traps, detect illusion etc) so having a thief PC opens up party options, while still being able to concentrate on a strong mage ability as well.
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @Faydark

    Honestly with Robe of the Archmagi, I'd argue that Ghost Armor is largely pointless. I'd say that Wraithform or another defensive spell would likely be more useful. Also casting a slow might be more useful in that spellslot.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    My F/M/Ts generally start with 2 pips in Sling, since 5 Sling bullets a round in Spider form is hilarious, and you hardly even need a melee weapon in early BG1.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Huh, that bug hasn't been fixed?
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