FIGHTER/THIEF or BLADE?

FallenAasimon

So here I'm trying to make a PC for my first full run, after a few restarts... And I must decide between either a half-elven Fighter/Thief or Blade.

I'm mildly spoiled. I played BG2 several years ago, but I remember being overwhelmed after leaving the very first dungeon, and as a good young milk drinker back then, I dropped it. Years later, I'd spend too much time reading on character descriptions and build topics without even having the game installed, just for the sake of curiosity. I know your dad was badass, I know all the NPCs that can join (even tough I have no clue how most are in game), I know about Sarevok, I know about a few optimal builds, and that's it. As soon as I finished Dark Souls, BG2EE came, so seemed the perfect time to give these gems a retry.

I already decided that my main party will be Korgan (Kagain in BG1), Edwin and Viconia. It's funny that the NPCs that appeal to me the most are all evil, so I decided to make a charismatic CN rogue that keeps everyone in check. starting as a vengeful antihero and slowly turning into the sociopathic embodiment of the god of murder. I'm interested in giving Dorn a try, but looks like he's evil to the core and I'm not sure if he will fit, at least in BG1. I googled Blackrazor and I know that I'm making that my PC end-game weapon.

F/T looks like the optimal option in terms of power, easier to roleplay and also more bhaalspawny in case I decide to embrace the whole god of murder thing. On the other hand, Blade seems more unique, and I wouldn't make Hexxat redundant in case I decided to take her. Also, I'm afraid one arcane (Edwin) won't be enough.

Lol, I'm very confused, if you guys could help me with any tips...

Mitchfork

I wouldn't consider a Fighter/Thief more "optimal" than a Blade- they're both going to play fairly differently, and Blades can tank/strike much more effectively than it might seem.

Your party composition is going to play into this decision (if you're like me and plan parties from the get-go). There is almost no additional utility in taking more than one Thief in BG2 because you have so many points, so if you take Hexxat you're not getting much mileage out of your Charname's Thief abilities. The way I see that it's just like I wasted half of my experience points. Fighters and Thieves also tend to "cap out" in the late game as they stop getting useful bonuses (but multi-class alleviates this) . On the other hand, there is a Blade NPC already that's definitely useable.

I don't really play Bards but the Blade abilities are transformative to the class, they are terrors in combat. The only caveat is that you will have to manage them a lot more than a Fighter/Thief. F/T gets great gear and fighter combat boosts so you can put them on AI control and watch them perform well (relatively), but you will have to manage your spells and spins/day to be effective as a Blade. I would consider the micromanagement aspect of the class when picking, keeping in mind that you will usually have 5 other characters to control. Blades also probably start much slower than F/T so you might be in for a harder BG1, but that's true of any non-fighter class.

Otherwise, you really can't go wrong. They're both fine classes in different ways.

kaffekoppen

You're absolutely right. A F/T has much to do with which NPCs you want to bring. To me, it adds some freedom to my selection since I'm normally forced to take a thief. Now, I don't have to. Perhaps I'll level more quickly or maybe I'll take Wilson. However, if you are dead set on bringing a thief NPC, some of the value of your F/T goes away.

Mitchfork said:

F/T gets great gear and fighter combat boosts so you can put them on AI control and watch them perform well (relatively)

At a high level they are as good at fighting as a paladin or ranger. They are 1/2 attack and a bit of damage per hit away from grandmastery, but they can still hit 10 attacks per round (and get to use a better speed offhand as well). In my BG1 party, my fighter/thief has outdamaged both Kagain and Dorn throughout the game (I'm at the XP cap now, almost done).

The other thing I really enjoy about a multiclass is the amount and selection of high level abilities. A F/T can get Use Any Item, the deadly high level traps *and* Critical Strike, Hardiness and GWW.

So... yeah that was just a bit of shameless F/T propaganda. I'm really enjoying the class myself anyway.

abacus

Blade.
In BG1 she'll be a solid caster (especially with level-dependant spells- she'll out-fireball Edwin), and whilst in the mid-late SoA her spellslinging will be weaker, it won't matter because she's a straight up mincing machine by then..

I'm currently doing what you suggest:
BG1-Kagain, Dorn, Edwin, Viconia & Shar-Teel (dualled>thief)
BG2-Korgan, Dorn, Edwin, Viconia & Hexxat
So far (Ch6 SoA) it's my fave run yet.
Bad Blades are Brill

Corvino

It depends what playstyle you enjoy more, as both initially look similar but actually work very differently.

A Fighter/Thief is more of a fire-and-forget character. Unless you're sneaking around and backstabbing everything they're pretty straightforward. You click on the enemy and they beat the crap out of it. You've also got a huge amount of utility in terms of thief lockpicking, trap disarming and setting, pickpocketing etc, though this is a bit redundant if you take Hexxat. F/Ts have a pretty similar playstyle throughout the saga - they begin with 4 weapon proficiency points, so you can be specialised in a weapon and dual-wield from the very beginning.

Blades take a while to develop due to their spell progression and limited proficiency points. You won't be dual-wielding effectively until level 4 at least. Due to the relative lack of armor and limited spell slots early on they need a party to babysit them for a while unless you spend an early proficiency point on a ranged weapon. Their playstyle is more involved and changes over time more than a F/T, and you'll need to pre-buff with defensive and offensive spells to get the most out of them.

Either is a fine option and can compliment evil parties well. You may benefit more from having the Blade's casting in a pure evil BG2 party, but you'll have to keep a relatively weak character alive through BG1. F/Ts are solid throughout, but arguably are not as good at high (TOB) levels as the Blade.

booinyoureyes

Well, you'd need a thief. Imoen actually works in evil parties, so there is that option.
I much, much, much prefer Blades (my current playthrough is sooooo much fun). They are more diverse, and require micromanagement, which is nice since it is your main character. Korgan is just point and click and then ignore, so that helps.

If you really don't want Imoen or Hexxat or Jan (all viable thieves) then I think you may have to use the F/T.

kaffekoppen

Well, someone has to speak up for the poor F/T now I think

I think it's a bit unfair to call F/T "fire and forget". If you wanted to play it like that, why not just pick a fighter kit? You'd be slightly better at fighting anyway. If you play a F/T, of course you should be using traps, backstabbing, scrolls and wands and on top of that fill out the thief role in the party.

Instead of looking at the thief part as being redundant, I look at it as an opportunity to take one more character just for fun or leave out the last one and get more levels. For example, I like Hexxat, my wild mage has her in the party at the moment. Unfortunately, pure un-kitted thieves are kind of bad. She often doesn't help very much in a fight even when micromanaged. I equip her well and everything, she just doesn't have the APR or the THAC0 to keep up after traps and backstabbing have been used.

By the way, I have nothing against bards. My longest-lasting campaign character in pen and paper AD&D was in fact a bard. Ah I remember him well. Unfortunately he was killed by pirates. *sniff*

CrevsDaak

Blades can cast wizard spell up to lvl6, but they have low THAC0 progression, and they can wear the Amulet of Power innately, so they are better, but you'll miss the find/disarm traps and some other things like GWW, Smite, GD, but you'll be able to use bard's song and that bardic stuff.

Drayen

If you want a blade, just remember haer'dalis would fit well in your setup, and he comes with 2 pips in shortswords, giving him a nice additional APR that conventional blades don't have

CrevsDaak

Drayen said:

If you want a blade, just remember haer'dalis would fit well in your setup, and he comes with 2 pips in shortswords, giving him a nice additional APR

Only warrior classes get APR bonuses from specialization/gaining levels, Haer'Dalis' APR won't improve, but his THAC0 and damage will improve.

kaffekoppen

CrevsDaak said:

Blades can cast wizard spell up to lvl6, but they have low THAC0 progression, and they can wear the Amulet of Power innately, so they are better, but you'll miss the find/disarm traps and some other things like GWW, Smite, GD, but you'll be able to use bard's song and that bardic stuff.

I don't see how that makes blades better. I think what's best very much depends on the situation and the rest of your party.

CrevsDaak

@kaffekoppen for solo runs

Real

booinyoureyes said:

Well, you'd need a thief...

You don't... reaalllly need a thief do you? A high str or knock should do the trick.

booinyoureyes

Real said:

booinyoureyes said:

Well, you'd need a thief...

You don't... reaalllly need a thief do you? A high str or knock should do the trick.

Two words: Durlag's. Tower!

nano

Hey! Who says fighter/thieves are fire and forget? Maybe if you're a Carsomyr-wielding imitation paladin, but real fighter/thieves are some of the best backstabbers in the game and require a lot of attention to use well. Now, I don't know what you Blades are doing that requires so much micromanagement but in my experience a backstabber is much more active than your little fighter/mage knockoff. We have to dart in and out of combat and from shadow to shadow, stopping only long enough to deliver six feet of oak to the C2 vertebra of our next target. A critical strike boosted backstab will decimate anything with a back and finish fights before you realize they've started. All I see you guys doing is refreshing mirror image and calling it spellcasting!

(full disclosure, I suck with Blade and have no idea how they work but I thought this thread needed more trash talk to liven things up ^_^)

kaffekoppen

I have both in my party at the moment and I love it. Most of the time my fighter/thief is most powerful, but then I meet a spellcaster with annoying contingencies and suddenly Haer'Dalis is more useful. In any case, I'd definitely rather have both than two of either class.

I didn't think much of blades until I picked up Haer'Dalis for the first time for my current playthrough. I was surprised to see he can hold his own in melee with Offensive Spin. Now Haer'Dalis of course has the hit points of a newborn kitten, so I haven't had much luck tanking with him.

nano

Aren't blades awesome tanks with all their mage buffs? Seems to me like they lack a bit offensively but make up for it with stoneskins etc

kaffekoppen

They are. Haer'Dalis just has very bad HP so if anything does punch through his defenses, he's pretty much done.

wizzywazzo

kaffekoppen said:

They are. Haer'Dalis just has very bad HP so if anything does punch through his defenses, he's pretty much done.

Agree that his hit points suck, but remember you can utilize his mage spells with vampiric touch to give him a much needed boost.

Corvino

Holy Thread Necromancy Batman!