Can the assassin or thieves have more proficiencies?

xLegionx

Who agrees that all thieves and assassins should have a little bit more proficiency in their weapons? Nowhere near as much as a fighter of course but maybe atleast 2 maybe 3 stars? Who agrees?

The_New_Romance

Two stars would be okay in my opinion. I always found it strange why thieves were no better fighters than mages, even if every description of them went against that image.

Crawley

Nay! 1 star means that someone can use the weapon and that's it. No penalties, no bonuses. If we get thieves to 2 stars, paladins and rangers should be raised to 4 and pure fighters to 7-8 stars.

Also thieves are better fighters than mages because they have better thac0 progression. Don't mistake battle prowess with weapon proficiency.

The_New_Romance

Yeah, but they still have the second-worst THAC0 progression in the whole game. What with all the swashbuckling and dashing swordsman stuff that rogues are associated with in Baldur's Gate, it just doesn't seem right. I'd rather they were on the same level as Clerics (which also only get one star, but a better THAC0), so there's basically good (Fighters) - mediocre (Clerics & Rogues) - bad (Mages) fighting skills among the classes.

Possibly never gonna get changed anyway because of WotC and contracts, so yeah

Tanthalas

Like Crawley said, if you give all the Thieves better proficiencies, you'll have to do the same with Paladins, Rangers and Multi-classed Fighters (personally I don't see why multi-classed Fighters are capped at two pips anyway).

EDIT: I'm fine with giving them the same THAC0 progression as Clerics though.

xLegionx

Well let them do it then I say! Give fighters and the like more proficiency as it is. They should not be only as proficient as mages who hardly ever train with weapons. Thieves I'm sure train against other thieves or fighters even to better their skills. More so with assassins or bounty hunters since they hunt living people for a living. Give the proficiency to thieves!!

FrozenDervish

Disagree as was said weapon proficiency is how adept you are at using it not how well you fight. A thief is just that a thief they do not fight face to face, but from the shadows with unfair numbers, poison, and ambushes.

If you say a thief practices with his weapon increasing his proficiency to fight fair then obviously he is either a multiclass/dual class fighter as he no longer feels that he needs to focus solely on fighting in the shadows or unfairly.

Silence

Giving thieves priest THAC0 is a good idea. I have a hard time understanding why the cleric gets spells, armor, and comparatively better fighting skills than a rogue, who just gets his thief abilities.

I disagree with more than one star in a weapon slot. I think that's a warrior only benefit (with swashbuckler being a fun exception). Mind you Swashbuckler is a pretty insane kit by itself.

I like the idea of letting rogues max out on weapon styles. No extra proficiency points, just a higher maximum on styles.

LadyRhian

Thieves aren't meant to go head to head in fights. When they do, they almost always lose. Besides, thieves have backstab, something no other class gets, and can do double to quintuple normal weapon damage on a backstab- that's a pretty big bonus already! And clerics get better THAC0s than thieves because these are supposed to be martial clerics, like a cleric on the Crusades who fights in the midst of warriors and helps heal them in battle, not sits on the sidelines and waits for the battles to be over, then rushes out like a First Aid crew.

Bobby_Singer

Silence said:

Giving thieves priest THAC0 is a good idea. I have a hard time understanding why the cleric gets spells, armor, and comparatively better fighting skills than a rogue, who just gets his thief abilities.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. When the cleric class was created, it was based on Templars and Hospitallers. These were not meek little priests or pastors. They were warriors in the same class as true warrior knights like LadyRhian said.

LadyRhian

Certainly, when they brought out Specialty Priests, they made changes. Ones like Joydancers (Specialty Priests of Llira) can only wield nets and lassos (bludgeoning weapons in only extreme circumstances). They did get unarmed combat abilities, but these are not going to be priests in the forefront of a battle. in fact, if they harm others in combat with a weapon, they lose their abilities until they atone for an entire day and throw a big party. And no, I am not joking about the party part.

wariisop

Are Dual-Classed fighters also limited to 2 proficiency?

Silence

@Bobby_singer: Clerics are based on Templars and Hospitallers, but only loosely. After all the real Templars couldn't cast spells, but could probably use any weapon they wanted.

I wasn't aiming for a discussion about how to best represent a group from history, though those can be tons of fun. I was making a comment about game balance. Spell-casting is, in general, a greater power than thieving abilities or backstab. Spells can kill, revive, alter or persuade - they can pretty much do anything. Clerics get spell-casting and more access to armor and better fighting abilities than thieves. They also get one of the fastest level advancements in the game, too.

I like the cleric class and am in no way implying it should be changed - great class. I'm implying the Thief gets a raw deal. Increasing access to weapon styles doesn't make the thief any more sturdy in battle - still low HP, high AC. But it does make them a little more deadly. And I don't see a logical reason why weapons training would be so limited in the Thief when specialty rogues (eg: Rogue and Ninja) have such great weapon access. Assassins, who have crippled thieving abilities, still have terrible weapon access despite the fact their primary job description is apparently to kill people.

In later editions, they gave the two cleric and thief classes similar fighting ability, and I think that's the best compromise. However, they let the cleric keep the high HP and armor access, because, much as you said, clerics are intended to be martial characters at the front lines.

Bobby_Singer

@silence Hey, I respect your opinion on this, but this is why I think Dungeons and Dragons Next is doomed to fail. Old school and new school see things differently. When I started playing, we didn't worry about balance. The DM balanced it out for us, not the rules. And if one character class was more challenging, then it was just a challenge to play it. No big thing.

What I'm saying is that everything you say is true, but to me, who plays both 1e and 2e (and could give a crap about later editions), its all irrelevant. Now, all that said, somebody else on this forum pointed out to me that they didn't have a problem with anything about 1e and 2e as far as pen and paper games, but video games need more balance. That's a good and fair argument. My own feeling, though, is that if no character class is unplayable, I don't really worry about balance.

Silence

@bobby_singer: I actually very much agree with what you said at the end. 2nd edition pencil and paper is great as is...balance is kind of irrelevant. It's the DM who decides who tough the game is, not your character's statistics. 2nd edition pencil and paper is a little unbalanced but it was tremendous fun to play...and I usually played the thief. I guess I see the video game differently in that the challenges are static and usually involve hefty amounts of combat...as opposed to the things the thief excels at, like theft, manipulation, and reading ancient languages.

I haven't met a 1st edition player before...wasn't elf a class in that edition? Wouldn't mind trying a game of that sometime...

LadyRhian

@Silence You are thinking of Basic D&D. Dwarves, Thieves and Halflings were classes. Clerics got no spells at first level, and there were no extra spells for a high Wisdom. My boxed set came with a copy of B2, Keep on the Borderlands. "Bree-yark!"

Bobby_Singer

@LadyRhian Bree Yark -- Hey rube. Gary sent us.

I might be falling in love. LOL ;-)

LadyRhian

@Bobby_Singer Aw, thanks! Some of that module can also severely overpower a low-level party, like the evil temple with the undead, and the room with the Medusa chained to the wall. I also loved B1 In Search of the Unknown- the room with the pools! The entrance with the guy pinned to the wall by a sword! Fun times. The rooms with doors hidden by an overgrowth of moss... the storeroom with the old alchemical/mage supplies... And the room with the copper dragon skin on the walls. My first level adventurers were EXTREMELY impressed with that!

Bobby_Singer

@LadyRhian I ran that adventure recently (for maybe the 5th or 6th time) but I ran it 2e and set it in the realms as a Zhentilar outpost in the Graypeak Mountains north of Llorkh. They were using the humanoids as raiders to attack non Zhent caravans traveling the Black Road. The group that ran it was approx 5th level and it was a challenge to them (and I even removed the medusa and replaced her with the Green Regent of Mielikki who had been imprisoned by a cleric of Bane). Difficult module, indeed.

Kithrixx

@Bobby_Singer Aww, you remembered me. Neat, I made an impression on someone.

@Silence Pen and Paper will always have its own balance. I've noticed a trend of people who roleplay tending to stick to PnP whereas people who roll play tend to stick to videogames. While both playstyles are entirely valid, they require different kinds of attention. PnP is often more about the experience, whereas VG is more about overcoming challenges. Overcoming challenges is fun, but only if the player doesn't feel deliberately cheated out of being effective.

Now, as for the topic at hand, I personally believe that thieves and the like have plenty of proficiency as it is. They are passable combatants with a very wide range of utilities and some very nasty abilities in traps and backstabbing. I'm pretty sure that people who think thieves need a boost in combat effectiveness are either A) not using them properly or don't take into account the non-combat abilities that thieves have.

reedmilfam

I luvv B2 The Keep on the Borderlands. Bad rolls lead to mass death when the Owl Bear comes O.O

Twilight_Fox

In the 2nd edition that 1 point, so 1 point is ok with me.

Bobby_Singer

@Kithrixx Just cause i remembered you doesn't mean I'm gonna flirt with you like I just did with LadyRhian. :-p lol

LadyRhian

@Bobby_Singer Impressive! I ran the U series as part of my Dagger Falls campaign. PCs are town guards in Dagger Falls. Some of them were noble, and one of them rolled a background (from Heroes of Legend by Paul Jacquays) that he inherited a plot of land. Of course, this was the house from U1, which was located near the High Road that runs near Dagger Falls and Secomber. It was fun.

@reedmilfam One of the parties I GM'ed nearly got killed by giant centipedes in that module. I have tons of dice, so instead of rolling 1d20 multiple times, I was rolling 10d20's all at once. One round, I rolled 6 20's. The players nearly died (not to mention their PCs!)

reedmilfam

Well, I was DM for my kids. My wife/their mom forbade the slaying of the kidlets. I mean FORBADE.

Even the DM answers to somebody...

reedmilfam

HOWEVER, I think it would be great if dex bonus to hit applied to light weapons when higher than strength. My one problem with early AD&D rules is that armor doesn't negate DEX like in 3+; best is super high dex with heaviest armor for AC. Making DEX-based fighters relevant would be cool IMO.

Silence

@Kithrixx: Yeah, pencil and paper will always have it's own balance. I should point out though that I've played both PnP and VG adaptations of RPGs extensively. In PnP, I enjoy the thief because the options are really limitless. It is my feeling that many of these advantages do not translate well in a VG that's largely about combat. When the game became about other things, the thief was a lot of fun. That's why I enjoyed the Thieves' Guild quests - it was the first I got to role play a thief as opposed to just play one in battle. More heist missions I think would bring out the thief's talents better. If there were more of these options, I wouldn't care so much about the thief's prowess in battle.

I like to believe there is a compromise between the PnP version of the character and the video game version that can be achieved with very minor tweaking. I don't like the idea that an RPG necessarily has to cater to one playstyle.

@LadyRhian: My mistake, you're totally right. 1st ADD had the half-orc as a base race and the assassin as a base class. it is also had a wicked and very multi-talented version of the ranger, a crazy version version of the monk and several different versions of the bard.

MilesBeyond

reedmilfam said:

HOWEVER, I think it would be great if dex bonus to hit applied to light weapons when higher than strength. My one problem with early AD&D rules is that armor doesn't negate DEX like in 3+; best is super high dex with heaviest armor for AC. Making DEX-based fighters relevant would be cool IMO.

Take this and I'm happy. Take this and combine it with the Cleric's THAC0 and I'm even happier.

If there's anyone who should be able to put a second pip in weapon specialization, it's the Bard. Poor sod.

Bobby_Singer

@MilesBeyond The bard was an odd one. In 1e it was overly complicated and did not appear to be well thought out, or maybe it was thought out too much. It really was quite a bizarre character. I don't know if Gygax and Arneson had a reason (historical, I mean) for that kind of character or what, but it was weird. Then, in 2e, they almost flipped it making it so vanilla, that is one of the few classes that I thought could have used a little more work.

@LadyRhian I think its neat reading how other DMs adapt material to their campaign. I ran the U series also, but I replaced the town of Saltmarsh with the town of Ylraphon (little port next to the flooded forest on the north end of The Vast).

IchigoRXC

I think thieves are fine with 1 point, however assassins should be allowed 2 points in daggers I believe, due to the nature of the kit. They are more violence inclined and being trained in assassination with a blade should show compared to vanilla cousins.

Grammarsalad

Cleric BAB

Edit: Er Thac0