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Baldur's Gate Canon

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  • ScotGaymerScotGaymer Member Posts: 526

    I read the novels 2 times Because I could not understand them whole the first time The second time I was much better in English but I still didnt understand wat is going on


    Even native english speakers have trouble translating Philip Athans' nonsense. I wouldn't worry about it.
  • AnprionsaAnprionsa Member Posts: 106
    Crowseye said:

    I read somewhere that Athans wrote the first novel from an early outline of the plot because of deadlines and all that jazz. It really is one of the worst pieces of fantasy I've ever read. To quote myself from long ago:

    "It's almost like Bioware told Athans 'the books should be dark and gritty' and Athans interpreted that as meaning he should show people die gruesomely and have characters that think about sex a lot. And he somehow still pulled that off in the most juvenile way possible.

    Athans comes off as a rank amateur...with his characterization, his storytelling, and his prose. The best that can be said IMO is that he does follow the general outline of the story of the games as far as where the characters go and why (though obviously he skips a lot).

    To top things off, obviously neither Bioware nor WotC went and did a serious continuity check to make sure what Athans wrote matched existing material, or game material that could have been used in a more official capacity later."

    For the most part I use the games in my personal Forgotten Realms storyline and reconcile everything as needed. I use the name Abdel Adrien, but he's certainly not Athans' Conanesque Abdel or whatever he was trying to emulate.

    Anyway, if WotC wanted to put Bhaal back in play (something I'm not against, as I think a war fought in the shadows between the faiths of competing gods of murder would be awesome), bringing in Abdel Adrien and having him killed a century later to complete Bhaal's plan in a playtest module is a really lame way to go about it IMO. Instead, I would have gone for the essence in the Boarsekyr river where Bhaal was killed and the intentional attempted resurrection of Bhaal by someone foolish enough to try to use him to destroy Cyric.

    What I initially wrote was WOTC using the books and continuing on them. But if we were to go back to when they were being written, I'm sure we could find GROSS incompetence (or worse detachment) at all levels in regards to the decision making during editing and publishing. The books reek of amateurism and disinterest in both character development and story.
  • chbrookschbrooks Member Posts: 86
    Crowseye said:

    I read somewhere that Athans wrote the first novel from an early outline of the plot because of deadlines and all that jazz. It really is one of the worst pieces of fantasy I've ever read. To quote myself from long ago:

    "It's almost like Bioware told Athans 'the books should be dark and gritty' and Athans interpreted that as meaning he should show people die gruesomely and have characters that think about sex a lot. And he somehow still pulled that off in the most juvenile way possible.

    Athans comes off as a rank amateur...with his characterization, his storytelling, and his prose. The best that can be said IMO is that he does follow the general outline of the story of the games as far as where the characters go and why (though obviously he skips a lot).

    To top things off, obviously neither Bioware nor WotC went and did a serious continuity check to make sure what Athans wrote matched existing material, or game material that could have been used in a more official capacity later."

    For the most part I use the games in my personal Forgotten Realms storyline and reconcile everything as needed. I use the name Abdel Adrien, but he's certainly not Athans' Conanesque Abdel or whatever he was trying to emulate.

    Anyway, if WotC wanted to put Bhaal back in play (something I'm not against, as I think a war fought in the shadows between the faiths of competing gods of murder would be awesome), bringing in Abdel Adrien and having him killed a century later to complete Bhaal's plan in a playtest module is a really lame way to go about it IMO. Instead, I would have gone for the essence in the Boarsekyr river where Bhaal was killed and the intentional attempted resurrection of Bhaal by someone foolish enough to try to use him to destroy Cyric.

    From an interview I read with Athans, he had about two months to write the first novel. That's a ridiculous deadline.

    The first game came out in December 1998 and the first novel came out in July 1999. I doubt that Athans even had time to play through the game before he wrote the book. He was probably working from some notes or outlines provided by Bioware.

    Mind you that while this was some terrible management on the part of Wizards of the Coast, it doesn't excuse how badly written the books were. Deadline or no, there were writing and editorial mistakes that never should have seen print. The treatment of the female characters in the book was particularly awful, even considering that it was a D&D novel and those novels tend to be pretty sexist anyway. It also doesn't excuse some of the inexplicable bits in the sequel, such as Minsc's red hair.
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    I'll rewrite them for free if we can get them accepted as canon :P
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    rdarken said:

    I'll rewrite them for free if we can get them accepted as canon :P

    BUTT-KICKING FOR GOODNESS
  • kryptixkryptix Member Posts: 741
    nano said:

    Kaltzor said:

    Baldur's Gate MMO, all of the Kensai/Mages and Illusionist/Thieves?

    and no clerics anywhere.

    need rez plx
    lf healer, have dps
    res pls
    need tank!!1
    who here can cast raise dead?????
    Lol, I'd see at least some Ranger/Cleric or Stalker=>Clerics in there, the Kensai/Mage wouldn't be able to chase anyone down anyway so you can have a viable Ranger/Cleric I think. Timestop takes so long to cast you can be out of range already, or interupt it somehow...
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    chbrooks said:

    From an interview I read with Athans, he had about two months to write the first novel. That's a ridiculous deadline.

    The first game came out in December 1998 and the first novel came out in July 1999. I doubt that Athans even had time to play through the game before he wrote the book. He was probably working from some notes or outlines provided by Bioware.

    Mind you that while this was some terrible management on the part of Wizards of the Coast, it doesn't excuse how badly written the books were. Deadline or no, there were writing and editorial mistakes that never should have seen print. The treatment of the female characters in the book was particularly awful, even considering that it was a D&D novel and those novels tend to be pretty sexist anyway. It also doesn't excuse some of the inexplicable bits in the sequel, such as Minsc's red hair.

    I know that if WOTC came to me to write a book about the game in two months, I'd slam the door in their faces and go "NOOOPE!"

    It's one thing to write a story based on your own imagination--which I've done plenty of, two complete drafts in about two months. But it's another thing entirely to write based on outside information, especially if you want to be as close to the original work as possible. And then there's revising, another writer's chore to squeeze in, and that can be just as labor-intensive as writing from scratch.

    Doesn't excuse him for being a god-awful writer, but I can empathize.
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Mm. From what I understand, he never got to play the game, was working off old design notes, and only had two months to write.

    The series is still awful, and it's treatment of female characters is hideous as well as incredibly sexist- something that I doubt would have changed if he had more time to write the book, considering. But the plotline itself being so bad is probably due to the not playing the game, working off old design notes, and the only two months to write. The characters being horrible is Athans fault alone, but the plot being so horrible... I'd blame... was it TSR or WotC at that time? WotC, I guess.

    The Planescape: Torment book was awful in the same ways. Different author, though.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    I've said it before, he was and remains much more editor than writer.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    For first instance, he has only to be Half-Elf or and Elf.
    Then, sucks.... He is the PC.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Bah... that man has no excuses for the second "novel"
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    Twani said:

    Mm. From what I understand, he never got to play the game, was working off old design notes, and only had two months to write.

    The series is still awful, and it's treatment of female characters is hideous as well as incredibly sexist- something that I doubt would have changed if he had more time to write the book, considering. But the plotline itself being so bad is probably due to the not playing the game, working off old design notes, and the only two months to write. The characters being horrible is Athans fault alone, but the plot being so horrible... I'd blame... was it TSR or WotC at that time? WotC, I guess.

    The Planescape: Torment book was awful in the same ways. Different author, though.

    Well no book can bring justice to Planescape: Torment. That game had enough complex crap in it to fill at least 5 novels. And each part of it was brilliant
  • OnestepOnestep Member Posts: 225
    To be fair to Abdel Adrian... He wasn't necessarily a bad character. He was something of an asshole overall, but they could have ran with that. The byronic hero archetype is a commonly used one, and done well, can be very interesting.

    Had his personal flaws been played up as, y'know, actual flaws (rather than being whitewashed by the narrative, which continually makes him out to be a charismatic hero, despite his actions implying otherwise), he might have been interesting. Had he ever had to do anything else to win every single fight other than get angry and bhaal smash, the combat might have been dynamic and enjoyable to read. Had characters called him out on his bullshit, and stopped making excuses for him, the character dynamics might have been quite good. Had he actually had to struggle with his inner demons, rather than angst about it for a page before Jaheira flatters his ego and reassures him that he's the best person ever, he might have developed a character beyond the thuggish bruiser he was.

    As it is. he's a blatant asshole, who everybody treats as the best thing since sliced bread. It's aggravating.

    And despite that, he's still not actually the worst thing about the novels. There's way too many competitors for that. Imoen discovering she's a lesbian after being raped by a female drow? Classy. Minsc being a red-headed dishwasher? A stroke of literary genius! Jaheira being the most useless character in existence? ...Well, Druids DO need a slight buff in 2nd edition to compete with Clerics and Mages, but Druids aren't THAT bad.

    I can't help but feel that Abdel was a victim as well. An interesting character, buried under a terrible story, bad writing and surrounded by characters who have had their personalities butchered.
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