SCS Lavok

RedWizard

Don't really know what to say. Guy starts buffed with Spell Trap, SI:Abjuration and some other minor buffs.
Of course, being an early quest there literally is no way at all your characters will have means to dispel Spell Trap unless you grinded forever and delayed the quest to a far later Chapter or were lucky enough to find and save a scroll of Ruby Ray etc as a drop.
Frankly, the pre buffed Prison Warden with HLAs was cheesy enough, but at least you could dispel his buffs.
With Lavok it seems the only way to win is to wait until his protections are over and spells are gone, which is pretty doable assuming you have a strong character and Rods of Ressurections, but makes me feel cheap. Then again, it's not as if facing a level 21 wizard with a level 11-12 party isn't hilarious in itself.
I could try spaming spells until Spell Trap is absorbs enough crap, but I don't really know how that works, using Melfs for that purpose is rather cheesy to me too.

kryptix

He's a lot easier than tolgerias in the same dungeon, you can pretty much just wait out his pfmw and kill him, summon some stuff and insect swarm on something next to him.

Edit: by stuff I mean skeletons.

Also he does not gate in pit fiends at least not when I did him, but tolgerias does. I actually had a lot more trouble with the warden because on insane he would chunk neera in one bit from full sometimes...

RedWizard

heh, can't really wait on PFMW since he instantly goes Absolute Immunity or Improved Mantle, and I don't have anything +4-6.
Frankly my problem with SCS and some bosses like Lavok is that you fight a mage you cannot possibly hope to dispel, that and the quest was obviously designed for low as in 10-12 level characters as far as BG2 goes.
Warden can be dispeled at least.

kryptix

RedWizard said:

heh, can't really wait on PFMW since he instantly goes Absolute Immunity or Improved Mantle, and I don't have anything +4-6.
Frankly my problem with SCS and some bosses like Lavok is that you fight a mage you cannot possibly hope to dispel, that and the quest was obviously designed for low as in 10-12 level characters as far as BG2 goes.
Warden can be dispeled at least.

Daystar and the hammer +4 vs giant kin both count as +4 so depending on which SCS packages you installed they might still hit and are available early. I got an insect plague on him and he went down. Maybe fire elementals also hit? I don't think he has immunity to spells like Demi liches so you can just blast him with Wands too.

I also don't install the need to melfs but this time I can count the number of times I used melfs on like one hand.

DavidW

Don't do it as an early quest, basically. I don't (think that I) touch the levels of any of the mages in the area (Lavok is L21 in the vanilla game too). SCS is just doing what it says in the readme, causing NPC spellcasters to use their powers effectively. But that means that for low level parties, mage-heavy quests are best postponed. (Though I have plenty of reports of people doing it early anyway.)

SpaceInvader

Take down Spell Immunity: Abjuration and then dispel him, what's the problem?

kryptix

SpaceInvader said:

Take down Spell Immunity: Abjuration and then dispel him, what's the problem?

He doesn't have ruby ray or inquisitor dispel.

xzar_monty

@RedWizard: Whatever you do, don't use Melf's acid arrow on him. I did it once. Brought him down to however few hit points he needs to be at to stop fighting and start talking again. Went to get the thing he asks for and did what he asked. Came back. Entered the room he was in. He died, instantly. Because Melf's acid arrow continues to do damage...

Had to load an old save from my pre-Planar sphere days. Damn, that was annoying!

Anyone else experienced this?

xzar_monty

(Incidentally, I think that if you've survived the halflings in the Planar Sphere, you're equipped to deal with Lavok. And you have to have survived them in order to meet Lavok...)

Bayaz

Hmm, didn't have much issue with Lavok honestly. The warden however had about 5 yuntai mages next to him all casting spell triggers and teleporting across the map. SCS Planar prison is just nuts if you go to early.

xzar_monty

@Bayaz: I also found the SCS Planar Prison warden to be way too difficult. I confess that I resorted to cheese: I destroyed him with either fireballs or holy smites (or both) from just outside the screen, so that I could blast him with area spells without him seeing me. I felt awful about that, but he was simply impossible at the time for my party.

SpaceInvader

kryptix said:

SpaceInvader said:

Take down Spell Immunity: Abjuration and then dispel him, what's the problem?

He doesn't have ruby ray or inquisitor dispel.

And? Dispel/Remove Magic won't dissolve Spell Immunity anyway.

There are many other ways to dispel it: Khelben's Warding Whip, Pierce Magic/Shield, Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Scroll of Protection from Magic, Spell Strike.

kryptix

SpaceInvader said:

kryptix said:

SpaceInvader said:

Take down Spell Immunity: Abjuration and then dispel him, what's the problem?

He doesn't have ruby ray or inquisitor dispel.

And? Dispel/Remove Magic won't dissolve Spell Immunity anyway.

There are many other ways to dispel it: Khelben's Warding Whip, Pierce Magic/Shield, Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Scroll of Protection from Magic, Spell Strike.

How are you taking down a si abjuration without ruby ray? Dispel magic would only work if you were higher level than lavok and he's not... Is your answer to bring an inquisitor? Btw all of those others are abjuration. Also recommending wasting one of the two scrolls of protection from magic doesn't seem like a good choice either.

nano

Yeah, you need Ruby Ray for Spell Trap before you can touch the SI:Abjuration. SI:Abj itself will be removed by anything, it's only level 5 and it doesnt block spell removers, only dispel magic. But I don't see the point of removing SI:Abj at all; you're a level 12 mage against a level 21 or so and there's no way you're going to dispel him afterwards. Better to breach him once his spell defenses are down.

I would go invisible and time out his PfMW. Then take down his stoneskins the usual way. Is he a real lich? I can't remember, but if he isn't you can beat his PfMW+stoneskin with the firetooth crossbow. If he is then you can pop him with Daystar and protection from undead.

SpaceInvader

kryptix said:

SpaceInvader said:

kryptix said:

SpaceInvader said:

Take down Spell Immunity: Abjuration and then dispel him, what's the problem?

He doesn't have ruby ray or inquisitor dispel.

And? Dispel/Remove Magic won't dissolve Spell Immunity anyway.

There are many other ways to dispel it: Khelben's Warding Whip, Pierce Magic/Shield, Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Scroll of Protection from Magic, Spell Strike.

How are you taking down a si abjuration without ruby ray? Dispel magic would only work if you were higher level than lavok and he's not... Is your answer to bring an inquisitor? Btw all of those others are abjuration. Also recommending wasting one of the two scrolls of protection from magic doesn't seem like a good choice either.

Ok, first: you can use a Scroll of Prot from Magic with a simulacrum/project image without wasting any scroll.
Second: maybe this will help you understand my point: http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/SpellProtections.htm

vangoat

SpaceInvader said:

Ok, first: you can use a Scroll of Prot from Magic with a simulacrum/project image without wasting any scroll.
Second: maybe this will help you understand my point: http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/SpellProtections.htm

That is pure cheese, and I'm pretty sure it's blocked in SCS too.

My party is level 11/12 now, the only spellcaster is Edwin and Lavok is destroying me atm. He summons in 2(!) uber pit fiends, throws abi dalzim like crazy, and pierce shield and breach don't seem to be doing anything.

The problem is if i have to cast multiple spells to strip his protections, by then he's already killed edwin, or summoned the pit fiends and the battle is lost. He then rebuffs with PfMW anyway.

I don't think he's backstabable, dorn's poison weapon doesn't seem to do anything (even when I make him invisible and attack before Lavok buffs, and he's immune to cloudkill. I think I'm gonna have to run away and make him waste his spell on summons, then shut the door and hide in one of the other rooms.


Edit: Well, I killed him now. I basically ran past him, he started spellcasting so I hid in the room on the left with the myconids. Then came out, threw a couple more summons at him and then ran to the other room with the lizard men. Killed them, came back out and most of his most potent buffs had worn off, so I just threw breaches at him and had everyone attack. Kinda lame but whatever.

Edit 2: Just ran into old mate Tolgerias now. Lol. Time stop, summoned 2 cornugons and a bone fiend, every spell protection up. He prebuffs with like 8 things than fires a contingency on sight!

Edit 3: HEHEEEHEHE. Invisible Dorn with poisoned weapon and hexxat with jade fang ran up behind tolgerias. Backstab for 43 damage + got the stun (lucky)!. Dorn hits for 21 damage, plus the poison. Tolgerias dead in seconds.

kryptix

@vangoat

I got lavok with a insect plague before he got any powerful non defensive spells off then I just knocked out a couple of defenses and whacked him. Tolgerias was much harder because I had no poison weapon and no way to land insect plague before he went invis etc... Ended up running him out of defensive spells before killing him using invis potions and oil of speed. Everyone but Charname died...

RedWizard

Honestly I just ended up using the two scrolls of Protection from Magic on Lavok and Tolgerias, then destroyed them in seconds. Don't really care about cheese and omg so op items when you have to face a level 21 mage with 10+high level prebuffs at level 11-12 during Chapter 2 for a Stronghold quest. Sure, you can delay it until Chapter 6, but at that point the game is practically over.
The insect line of spells also lose a lot of power if you nerfed them in SCS, as every mage and their mother comes prebuffed with Fireshield.

kryptix

I can't remember if I nerfed them in my install because I don't think they work anyway if the target goes invis during the cast etc. Even without the fireshield change they don't work that great due to prebuffing (I really hate the chain contingency with SI Divination, Improved Invis and Globe of Invulnerability)... What are you supposed to do against that one? Glitterdust is too low level, true sight doesn't work etc... The only thing I've been able to try was thief detect illusion which has worked so inconsistently that I'm not sure if it works against it at all... I theoretically have Hexxat's detect illusion maxed a long time ago, but sometimes she will only remove mirrors from one mage out of two etc... Also they seem to like to run away during the detection pulses

I also had sunray against Lavok, not sure if he counts as undead but I had daystar and project image/simulacrum scroll when I did it.

Frond

I managed to take him down with a well placed Ice Storm, Greater Malison, and Web. Not sure if we have the same SCS install though.

Schneidend

SCS is dumb and I don't recommend it.

vangoat

Just had a weird bug with Tolgerias. I walked in and he just repeated "I am one of the few who are chosen" over and over and over. He turned hostile and his mage buddy attacked but he just stood their repeating his line. He apparently flipped his lid so I just walked up to him and put him out of his misery.

I reloaded and same thing happened.. weird. Oh well, can't say I was looking forward to that fight anyway.

xzar_monty

@Schneidend: No, SCS is, for the most part, extremely well done and provides a good extra challenge for those who like it and consider themselves to pretty good at the game. Some of it is over the top, though.

Schneidend

xzar_monty said:

@Schneidend: No, SCS is, for the most part, extremely well done and provides a good extra challenge for those who like it and consider themselves to pretty good at the game. Some of it is over the top, though.

Wizards being pre-buffed with spells that don't last hours, without having to use contingencies or triggers, is absurd.

kryptix

Schneidend said:

xzar_monty said:

@Schneidend: No, SCS is, for the most part, extremely well done and provides a good extra challenge for those who like it and consider themselves to pretty good at the game. Some of it is over the top, though.

Wizards being pre-buffed with spells that don't last hours, without having to use contingencies or triggers, is absurd.

No more absurd for the master of a castle to prepare his spell protections when he hears you coming than for you to prepare your spell protections as you get closer to the throne room...

Schneidend

kryptix said:

No more absurd for the master of a castle to prepare his spell protections when he hears you coming than for you to prepare your spell protections as you get closer to the throne room...

Still plenty absurd given that they get to have those protections no matter how long it takes you to get to the throne room. PCs have to deal with things like duration, and so should NPCs with class levels. BG2 already pulls this garbage to some extent, but SCS magnifies it by a factor of 10 and is thus itself garbage.

xzar_monty

@Schneidend: I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. The game gives you so much of an initial advantage that I'm quite happy to give some it away via SCS. The player's option to buff before every fight and rest after every fight (if he wants to) is patently unfair, but what can you do. Well, you can install SCS to even things at least a bit.

kryptix

By the time you hit TOB its kinda moot, you have every buff they have, and probably just as many spell slots. If I want Neera to dump her whole spellbook in one fight, I'm pretty sure she can kill almost anything. It would probably go something like two projected images alternating time stop combinations followed by wish rest... BTW, project image with a contingency on helpless of another projected image is pretty broken, especially if you put in improved invis and SI Divination in there as well...

Also, if you want to avoid them prebuffing, sneak a rogue in there and pop them with a one shot backstab before the protections come up...

Schneidend

xzar_monty said:

@Schneidend: I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. The game gives you so much of an initial advantage that I'm quite happy to give some it away via SCS. The player's option to buff before every fight and rest after every fight (if he wants to) is patently unfair, but what can you do. Well, you can install SCS to even things at least a bit.

I don't buff before a fight unless it seems like it would make sense for me to able to, which is not often.

@kryptix
That would be my solution, and often was in BG1, but BG2 has a habit of either prebuffing the Mages or having them join the fight pre-buffed. The fact that SCS exacerbates this even further is all the reason I need to hate it.

Kelzorn

I recently dealt with lavok with a lvl 10 party. I actually did only need spell thrust and secret word followed by breach. but then, you have to memorize this extensively. considering this is the only stuff you actually need to memorize if you have melee chars that can chunk him afterwards, that shouldn't be a problem.

As a Necromancer he won't have the powerful illusion spells active. but i'm honestly not sure about his spell trap and if and how it reacts with spell thrust and secret word hmm...

Anyway, the halflings are indeed maybe tougher because there's more of them, and Tolgerias definitely is tougher than Lavok.

But as many others, i agree that SCS isn't nearly as FAIR or Tactical as it is portrayed to be. It basically FORCES you to have 2 arcane casters in the grp, both memorizing anti-magic crap if you don't have scrolls galore and are not overleveled.

Meleers who are weaker than casters anyway don't get any extra lvls, but casters get a ridicoulously high lvl compared to you, if you're not powergaming/importing char etc. Against Groups and even Hordes of enemies which don't have Spellcasting support or only 1 mid-lvl Mage you're breezing through them...

But then come mages and if they come in packs, they are invincible gods possibly destroying you in 2 rounds.
Standard dispell is useless due to lvl (i don't have an inquisitor, and even then checked the option for 1.5multiplier). On the other hand, anyone in your party who hasnt spell immunity WILL always be dispelled, so you have to micro them away from other chars...

I always played with full pre-buffs but seriously starting to doubt it does the game any good. Spell Sequencers and contingencies were initially meant for short-term in combat buffing. And if they prebuff you have to install old Weimers Buff Scripts because else the game will be unplayable due to constant buffing. Too much micro for too little gain...

vangoat

The fact that they get to cast half a dozen protective spells BEFORE the battle starts (instantly) makes them unbalanced. If I wanted to do the same, each spell takes a round to cast, so before the battle even starts some of the spells have started wearing off. Not to mention they all have multiple contingencies and sequencers, so once you get through the first layer of protection they just fire off another.

What's worse is some of them seem to have spent most of their spell slots on protections, so they can't really do much to you other than stuff like chaos/malison/slow etc. So it's just a war of attrition until their defenses wear off.

Eventually you get sick of it and end up cheesing them by doing things like: go in invisible, hit them with a triple sunfire spell trigger before their protections come up (Good way to take out Layenne and the stupid eyeball in Twisted Rune fight).