In your opinion, who did Imoen study under?
ReadingRambo
Member Posts: 598
In another thread I started thinking about who Imoen studied under in Baldurs Gate. I thought Thalantyr would be a good fit. Maybe he knew of Gorion and felt a bit obligated to take the inquisitive lass under his wing. What are your thoughts?
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In my world, I like to imagine this is the case, while she also picked up some pointers from Firebead Elvenhair in exchange for some books she "purchased" for him
PS: did anyone else notice the sleeping young elven lady on Firebead's bed on the second floor of his Beregost home? The old man has still got it in him
ROFL combine that with Imoen's trollops and plugtails and Peter of the North and it makes you wonder what other business Bioware was indulged in..
@Fredjo Lol wow. I googled trollups and plug tails meant, I had no idea!!! I thought immy was talking about hair-dos and I thought a trollup was an appetizer or something. (After thinking about it, I guess it could be for Hexxat)
15 years later my PC finally realizes his sister is a perv
I use a similiar justification for CHARNAME dual-classing to Mage, especially in BG2. I see Gorion at least trying to pass on a few lessons to CHARNAME, even if he didn't seem particularly interested to begin with, as being quite likely.
I still like to think of magic as a fairly uncommon innate gift. So for my Kensai/Mage, I think it is perfect to assume that he had innate magical potential, but it was never realised until Irenicus tortured it outta him at the beginning of SoA. This means I intend to begin the DC process right at the start. I don't care if lv6 or lv7 Kensai isn't ideal to begin the change game-mechanics wise, it makes more sense RP-wise.
Also, I don't really understand why DC'ing results in loss of abilities from your first class... aside from a balancing perspective, it doesn't really make sense to me. Thus again Irenicus torture causing serious physical harm seems an appropriate explanation.
So I think Imoen could have actually been introduced to the very basics of the Art in Candlekeep, either by one of the monks, or by herself, with the help of her natural thieving skills
EDIT: As for the dualclassing drawbacks, I'd rather see them as variable penalties to main stats(Thac0 etc.) decreasing the closer one comes to his previous class level, than a permablock until you reach the required cap.
EDIT2: I mean, c'mon, does it not seem kinda retarded the way it works now? "Ok I'm a decent fighter, had a lot ogres killed with my trusty staff, but I'd like to learn some magic" *puts on the robes* "Oh crap, how can I even miss hitting an ogre?!??!?!!?!?" *5 months later* "Okay, I can cast some serious deadly spells but still can't hit a fuckin training dummy without missing 7 times, wtf?!?!?!?!?!?!"
EDIT3: *2 days later* "Yaaaay, I just learned my first 6th arcane cirle spell, and now I can hit a bird flying by with my stick again!"
A Sorcerer is someone who has an innate link to the Weave, rather than manipulating it through knowledge and learning as a Wizard does. Typically, their power comes from a draconic or divine bloodline. CHARNAME's divine parentage would be an excellent reason for him to possess that innate link, for example. They draw and cast magic freely, using their raw will to make it do as they please. However, their lack of understanding means that they tend to know fewer spells and do not have a Wizard's indepth knowledge of complicated magical matters, such a metamagic and spell penetration.
Basically, a Sorcerer would be closer to what you're describing happening than a Mage.
Each bloodline had their own advantages/disadvantageous. For example, if your heritage included someone from the elemental plane of fire, you can change the damage of any spell you cast into fire damage (Magic Flame Missiles, Melf's Burning Acid Arrow, etc) You also gain resistance to your elemental type as you level up, eventually gaining complete immunity at level 20 (max level).
Similarly each gets their own set of "natural skills" and abilities. For example, Draconic bloodlines are very perceptive and get a breath weapon (similar to our own Dragon Disciples). Fey bloodlines get Knowledge: Nature and archery skills. Infernal bloodlines get diplomacy, as in the old crossroads demon (one of their ancestors traded their soul to a devil for power, which they passed on to their kin)
I always wanted to make a chaotic evil 13 year old Infernal Sorcerer named Damien, ;P
Similarly thieves can be built for combat with certain feat selection, while not *completely* gimping their adventure skills (though a decent penalty, making it balanced). In my opinion Pathfinder is the best, and they are awesome because they post all their rules online for free!
Check 'em out here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/
Non-D&D examples of book-and-wand magic include "Harry Potter", and "Wendy the Good Witch" (and her evil aunts) from the "Casper" universe.
Non-D&D examples of innate magic include "Bewitched", lots of fantasy epic novels such as Eddings' "Belgariad" and Jordan's "Wheel of Time", and, arguably, "Star Wars".
There are lots of fictional works that mix the two in their magic systems, such as "Charmed", where the three sisters normally perform book-and-wand magic, but each has one special innate power that she can cast at will.
"Bewitched" could also be seen as a mix, since there are spells up to a certain level that those witches can cast at will, with no verbal component, but they still need complex rhyming incantations to cast higher level spells, which have to be taught and learned.
One of the disadvantages suffered by the book-and-wand witch or wizard, is that without either the spellbook, some kind of tool (usually a wand, but could be a potion or scroll), or more commonly, both, the magician is powerless. This kind of magic-user is utterly dependent on books, knowledge, tools, experience, and skill to have any kind of special powers at all.
(The mage marooned on Werewolf Island in the BG game tells you all about this - without his spellbook, he is powerless, and trapped on the island. Only the mercy of Selune has kept him alive.)
The main disadvantage of the innate magic-user is usually a lack of flexibility in the kinds of spell powers that can be used, with the counterbalance of being extremely powerful and talented in one or two areas of magic only, and not needing any books, tools or outside help or knowledge to be able to tap into their powers and cast.
These ways of thinking about magic powers in fiction are very prevalent in Western fiction - I couldn't say whether the same is true in Eastern fiction.
In D&D, wizards are your "book and wand" casters, and sorcerers are your innate casters. Bards in 2nd edition are "book and wand", but get changed into innate casters for 3rd edition.
The primary attribute of the wizard is intelligence. The primary attribute of the innate caster is supposed to be charisma, but BG didn't implement that correctly.
Your analysis of magic reflects that you seem to be thinking of magical ability the way sorcerers do. For the wizards, I think there has to be some innate talent, usually seen in childhood through intelligence shown, but that some adult wizard has to apprentice the magically talented child for a long, long period of careful training.
For this thread, Dynaheir is seen by several people who have played the NPC Project as likely being Imoen's "master" for her magical apprenticeship. Imoen doesn't seem to have any innate powers, even from her Bhaal heritage. She's just really, really sharp about figuring things out. She watches Tarnesh or Dynaheir cast a spell, and she can exclaim "Oh! I see how you did that! I think I can do that too!"
Magic in the D&D universe is powered by an energy field called "the Weave". There is a goddess in charge of managing it - Mystra. There are many ways to tap into the Weave. Wizards do it by performing gestures and speaking learned, memorized mystical phrases that have been created and sanctioned by Mystra for controlled access to the Weave.
Theoretically, in the Forgotten Realms, anyone can access the Weave at any time, but in practice, only highly intelligent or gifted people are able to memorize the complex rituals needed to do so.
Wild magicians access the Weave as wizards do, but they have discovered a new element of the Weave called "wild magic", that can greatly amplify the energy channeled - unfortunately, it is poorly understood, and often backfires. I like to think that wild mages may have been sorcerers who got forced into wizard studies ("No, child, if you're going to go about casting spells, do it the *right* way!"), and managed to tap into wild magic by accident.
If you read the "wild mage" class description carefully, it says that traditional wizards are very interested in this new magical energy and wish to study it. Thus, Neera is on the run from the Red Wizards of Thay, which is actually a pretty good story about what would happen in the Forgotten Realms.
Sorcerers and third edition bards do it naturally, without thinking, through an innate gift.
Clerics also access the Weave the same way wizards do, but they are given the mystical words and gestures miraculously as gifts from their gods, through meditation and prayer, and they can learn only spells approved and gifted to them by those gods. Some spells are reserved only to clerics and druids of certain gods - the gods do not allow wizards and sorcerers to cast those "divine" spells. This is one of the ways that the gods maintain control of the Weave and of the Forgotten Realms.
I like the descriptions of wizard magic vs. sorcerer magic from the 3rd edition Neverwinter Nights games:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Wizard
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Sorcerer
See also "Vancian magic system".
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic
Thank you if you read this long scholarly treatise on magic in the Forgotten Realms.
I would actually argue that Harry Potter is more of a mixture, as only certain bloodlines can access magic. There seems to be some heredity in it (but very vague)
Another interesting take on magic is the Dresden Files book series (my fave!), where magic is by nature considered to be dangerous (as in many "low" fantasy settings). So sorcerers are those who practice magic without regard for the Rules set up by a magic council they have, and use their natural abilities unrestrained. Thus wizards are considered to be true practitioners, while sorcerers are dangerous and Warlocks are less talented yet still irresponsible users.
Honestly I always thought it was dumb that if you lose your spellbook all of the sudden you can't cast *anything* (other than a cantrip or two). Real life "learned" professions aren't debilitated to that extent. Imagine if lawyers needed to read every law in order to do anything? I mean, if a doctor loses his Netter's Atlas of Human Anatomy, he doesn't forget where the pancreas is!
Also, I always saw that whole "genetics" thing as being arguably but possibly something that the wizards' culture used to make themselves exclusive from and better than the "muggles". That interpretation gets reinforced for me when the Slytherin leaders and Death Eaters start talking about "Mudbloods" needing to be exiled or even killed. Those who wish to hold onto power would have a vested interest in keeping the source of that power as exclusive.
I haven't read the Dresden Files, but I've read other works that use the theme of "magic is dangerous and must be controlled," such as Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series. Even Shadows of Amn plays on that theme. I guess that's a full-blown trope in magical fantasy writing.
I agree with you that it's kind of silly for an experienced wizard to become helpless if he loses his spellbook, but that's what this magic system does to keep the wizards from becoming godlike and overbalancing all the other classes. It's that Vancian magic system in operation - the whole system is designed to limit and balance the power of mages against other character types.
You don't wanna know..
If you are wondering, then I think this is a question better left to aged sages
lol... to be fair, and totally shallow, Hermoine was never meant to be so obviously attractive. Emma Watson grew up 'better' than the casting folks expected when she was 9-10 years old! I bet they were disappointed with Daniel's refusal to grow vertically... Harry is supposed to be pretty tall!
Edit: Oh yeah... on the subject of hot gingers... Amy Pond!
With a grasp of the basics, plentiful demonstrations of spell magic by numerous mages and access to more magical artifacts than you can shake a stick at, they could have worked out Wizardry by themselves.