Kensai/Mage vs Generalist Mage

Onestep

So I'm just about to start a new game, and I'm kinda indecisive about whether to play a Kensai in BG1 and Dual Class once I'm finished with the Circus, or just start as a mage from the get go. They're both viable, but I just feel like the Kensai would be stronger from the get go, and the Kensai/mage would be stronger than the Pure Mage in the endgame as well. On the other hand, Sleep remains incredibly overpowered for 80% of encounters in BG.

Opinions?

FinneousPJ

If you don't need your CHARNAME to be the primary mage, I'd go for the K->M. But then you'll obviously need a second mage.

Onestep

FinneousPJ said:

If you don't need your CHARNAME to be the primary mage, I'd go for the K->M. But then you'll obviously need a second mage.

I was thinking of going for the canon party, and grabbing Minsc and Dynaheir right after the Nashkel mines, using Xan to Sleep through the Gnolls.

FinneousPJ

Then you've no need for another pure class mage, IMO.

Serpion

Plain mage is always worse than fighter/Berserk -> Mage.


Only one valuable option is mage specialist (Conjuer or Illusionist or wild). In this case you receive some addtional spells but loose ability to wear some good items and loose a lot of HP.

element

feels cheesy to me id go pure mage

kaffekoppen

If you're interested in raw power, I think either a wild mage (they can do insanely cheesy things at high levels), a berserker 9 / mage or a kensai / 13 mage. I prefer pure casters myself so I never tried the duals.

If I did pick the dual though, I'd much prefer dual-classing at level 9. It may be less powerful, but it's oh so much less painful.

Onestep

FinneousPJ said:

Then you've no need for another pure class mage, IMO.

I'm playing through the whole series, as my OP implied. In BG2, I'm going to probably be the main mage. Oh, wait. Are you suggesting that I go K/M?

kaffekoppen said:

If you're interested in raw power, I think either a wild mage (they can do insanely cheesy things at high levels), a berserker 9 / mage or a kensai / 13 mage. I prefer pure casters myself so I never tried the duals.

If I did pick the dual though, I'd much prefer dual-classing at level 9. It may be less powerful, but it's oh so much less painful.

I don't like Wild Mages. At all. I was intending to dual class at 9 though, just after the Circus.

nano

I also like dual classing at level 2. It's kind of silly but you don't have to care about downtime and you're a fighter/mage right from the start without the exp split of being a F/M. As soon as you leave Candlekeep you can toss your sword aside and be like "screw you Gorion, you never let me look at the spellbooks in Candlekeep but you can't stop me now!"

FinneousPJ

nano said:

I also like dual classing at level 2. It's kind of silly but you don't have to care about downtime and you're a fighter/mage right from the start without the exp split of being a F/M. As soon as you leave Candlekeep you can toss your sword aside and be like "screw you Gorion, you never let me look at the spellbooks in Candlekeep but you can't stop me now!"

That's a nice choice - especially for BG1 - but doesn't make much sense for a trilogy run; and especially not for a kensai.

Onestep said:

FinneousPJ said:

Then you've no need for another pure class mage, IMO.

I'm playing through the whole series, as my OP implied. In BG2, I'm going to probably be the main mage. Oh, wait. Are you suggesting that I go K/M?

If you plan to be the main mage (especially if the only mage) in BG2, then I suggest pure class or sorcerer. I find with the buffing spells you want for a K->M, there's painfully few slots for other magicks.

nano

I'm guessing you mean "not optimal" or "crappy" because it makes perfect sense to me I take your point, though.

But... BG1 is a third of the game and who wants to spend it as kensai? Unless you really like playing a kensai, and not a very good one at that, because they don't have enough bonuses yet to really differentiate them from a normal fighter and you're just a weird naked guy running around waggling his sword. Ehm... moving on

I think any sort of fighting mage is more than strong enough to roll through the rest of the game once you have both classes running and it's mostly a matter of how much icing you want on your cake.

Agree 2 kensai would be a bad choice. I'd probably go with vanilla fighter. Or if you use the tweak mod, barbarian! +2 runspeed, woooo!

Onestep

nano said:

I'm guessing you mean "not optimal" or "crappy" because it makes perfect sense to me I take your point, though.

But... BG1 is a third of the game and who wants to spend it as kensai? Unless you really like playing a kensai, and not a very good one at that, because they don't have enough bonuses yet to really differentiate them from a normal fighter and you're just a weird naked guy running around waggling his sword. Ehm... moving on

I think any sort of fighting mage is more than strong enough to roll through the rest of the game once you have both classes running and it's mostly a matter of how much icing you want on your cake.

Agree 2 kensai would be a bad choice. I'd probably go with vanilla fighter. Or if you use the tweak mod, barbarian! +2 runspeed, woooo!

I did consider a Berserker instead, since that's basically a Fighter+ as long as you don't want to use ranged weapons.

But yeah, I'm not sure what I'm going with right now.

FinneousPJ said:

nano said:

I also like dual classing at level 2. It's kind of silly but you don't have to care about downtime and you're a fighter/mage right from the start without the exp split of being a F/M. As soon as you leave Candlekeep you can toss your sword aside and be like "screw you Gorion, you never let me look at the spellbooks in Candlekeep but you can't stop me now!"

That's a nice choice - especially for BG1 - but doesn't make much sense for a trilogy run; and especially not for a kensai.

Onestep said:

FinneousPJ said:

Then you've no need for another pure class mage, IMO.

I'm playing through the whole series, as my OP implied. In BG2, I'm going to probably be the main mage. Oh, wait. Are you suggesting that I go K/M?

If you plan to be the main mage (especially if the only mage) in BG2, then I suggest pure class or sorcerer. I find with the buffing spells you want for a K->M, there's painfully few slots for other magicks.

Thing is, I really like having the extra HP and the fallback of being able to stab/shoot things accurately that comes with Dual Classing. Other than that, yeah, I pretty much intend to be blowing stuff up, barring a few bosses.

Also, BG is kind of when Fighters shine. They fall behind a bit halfway into BG2. Except for Inquisitors. They never fall behind.

syllog

If the alternative is generalist mage then I'd start as kensai, but I would NOT wait till BG2 to dual.
You can dual at level 7 and still hit mage 8 in BG1, or dual at 6 and hit max level in BG1 of mage 9.

But that's just a power/convenience balance.
Do what feels good for the character. Dual at level 3 if you feel like it. Maybe dual after you've spent sometime with an NPC wizard. Even 2 levels of Kensai is a large benefit over pure mage.
You can use al weapons, get more proficiency points, specialize and get attack benefits, use fighter potions.

So, yeah, I'd run Kensai if that's what appeals to you, but dual early. Not later than lvl 7 unless you really like playing fighters.


Edit: If you don't like Kensai and Berserker feels cheesy (casting magic while in a frothing Berserk frenzy? Really?) You can take a few levels of un-kitted fighter. That said, I think pretty much any kit is reasonable given that you grew up in the biggest library in the world -- and if you have the int for a mage you could easily have researched an exotic fighting style.
[From a mechanics perspective I think unkitted fighter is preferable to Kensai for a mage (unless you dual really late) as it gives you access to the helmet and gauntlet magic item slots -- there are some great helmets!]

If you just want some hp - you can always take a few levels of Cleric if it fits your character - wear helemts, d8 vs d4, and some neat spells that you can use later on. Neutral clerics get free TrueSight!
Mechanically Cleric-->Mage dual is much more powerful than Fighter-->Mage dual I think. (And if you pretend Neutral cleric is a cleric of Oghma or something it can fit well.)

Onestep

syllog said:

If the alternative is generalist mage then I'd start as kensai, but I would NOT wait till BG2 to dual.
You can dual at level 7 and still hit mage 8 in BG1, or dual at 6 and hit max level in BG1 of mage 9.

But that's just a power/convenience balance.
Do what feels good for the character. Dual at level 3 if you feel like it. Maybe dual after you've spent sometime with an NPC wizard. Even 2 levels of Kensai is a large benefit over pure mage.
You can use al weapons, get more proficiency points, specialize and get attack benefits, use fighter potions.

So, yeah, I'd run Kensai if that's what appeals to you, but dual early. Not later than lvl 7 unless you really like playing fighters.


Edit: If you don't like Kensai and Berserker feels cheesy (casting magic while in a frothing Berserk frenzy? Really?) You can take a few levels of un-kitted fighter. That said, I think pretty much any kit is reasonable given that you grew up in the biggest library in the world -- and if you have the int for a mage you could easily have researched an exotic fighting style.
[From a mechanics perspective I think unkitted fighter is preferable to Kensai for a mage (unless you dual really late) as it gives you access to the helmet and gauntlet magic item slots -- there are some great helmets!]

If you just want some hp - you can always take a few levels of Cleric if it fits your character - wear helemts, d8 vs d4, and some neat spells that you can use later on. Neutral clerics get free TrueSight!
Mechanically Cleric-->Mage dual is much more powerful than Fighter-->Mage dual I think. (And if you pretend Neutral cleric is a cleric of Oghma or something it can fit well.)

Honestly, I don't mind waiting till BG2. A Hasted Fighter is pretty much the most powerful thing in the game until level 9 or so.

I think I'm just going to run it as CHARNAME recognizing the need to have a greater understanding of magic after seeing Irenicus and Cowled Wizards in action. That, or just start as a mage.

RedWizard

Vanilla Fighter>Mage, either at 4 or 7.
4 instead of 3 because xp only really starts skyrocketing around level 4>5+ in BG1. You can do it at 7 for the +half attack and more HP, but it'll take a while unless you solo Mutamin's garden.
Berserker>Mage never made any sense to me, as if you could concentrate enough to cast spells while enraged.
Kensai>Mage... never bothered with, leveling a Kensai is far too boring in BG1 and frankly vanilla fighter is already more than enough.

FinneousPJ

Hmm, why would leveling a kensai be far more boring than a fighter?

kaffekoppen

I don't think it is at all. A plain fighter is more boring than any kit IMO.

Personally, I would not dual before level 9 due to grandmastery. I don't see it as a shame that you have to play as a figher in BG1 either, because fighters almost dominate BG1.

Pantalion

Since mage levels over 28 are worthless, Kensai 13 -> Mage 28 will both be mechanically superior (to a non-specialist) and have fewer wasted levels. For Kensai 9 dual, may as well go up to level 10 first, since there's a whole level's worth of wasted Exp.

Personally for a dual class mage I prefer Swashbuckler 15 -> Mage 28. +3 to hit, +3 to damage, -4 AC, 3 snares/day and 390 for thief skills. Thief skills are generally more useful and harder to emulate for a pure mage than combat skills, and a multiclass is superior in terms of being a magically supplemented warrior.

Thieves are also vastly more interesting to play than Fighters, so there's that.

kaffekoppen

Level 9 duals aren't best but they are more convenient and you at least have grandmastery. There's also the small matter to consider (and I never see it considered when comparing builds) that most players will not hit the XP cap so the last few levels are more of a theoretical concern. The delay before both classes are active is very real and felt by everyone.

Onestep

After giving it a bit more thought, I think I'm going to go Fighter 9 / Mage 28, Dual Classing shortly after leaving Chateau Irenicus. Grabbing all the buff books from BG 1 should make CHARNAME pretty good.

Or maybe just go with a generalist mage from the start. A mage is still a mage, and can thus flatten pretty much the entire game singlehanded with a few levels.

syllog

Pantalion said:

Since mage levels over 28 are worthless, Kensai 13 -> Mage 28 will both be mechanically superior (to a non-specialist) and have fewer wasted levels. For Kensai 9 dual, may as well go up to level 10 first, since there's a whole level's worth of wasted Exp.
...
Thieves are also vastly more interesting to play than Fighters, so there's that.

That assumes the point is simply to have the baddest bad when the game is over rather than enjoy playing the character all the way through. For a lot of people that enjoy mages 13 levels of fighter are just too boring. (And again: I think 13 levels of Cleric would be more mechanically powerful anyway - 6th lvl cleric spells).

But I agree. I also like Thief->Mage Duals. Thieves are just fun.
I do allow my self to specialize as a dualed mage though (as per PnP).

Onestep

syllog said:

Pantalion said:

Since mage levels over 28 are worthless, Kensai 13 -> Mage 28 will both be mechanically superior (to a non-specialist) and have fewer wasted levels. For Kensai 9 dual, may as well go up to level 10 first, since there's a whole level's worth of wasted Exp.
...
Thieves are also vastly more interesting to play than Fighters, so there's that.

That assumes the point is simply to have the baddest bad when the game is over rather than enjoy playing the character all the way through. For a lot of people that enjoy mages 13 levels of fighter are just too boring. (And again: I think 13 levels of Cleric would be more mechanically powerful anyway - 6th lvl cleric spells).

But I agree. I also like Thief->Mage Duals. Thieves are just fun.
I do allow my self to specialize as a dualed mage though (as per PnP).

I do like Fighter/Thieves. I have to admit, Kensai/Thief is genuinely immensely powerful.

syllog

Onestep said:

syllog said:

Pantalion said:

Since mage levels over 28 are worthless, Kensai 13 -> Mage 28 will both be mechanically superior (to a non-specialist) and have fewer wasted levels. For Kensai 9 dual, may as well go up to level 10 first, since there's a whole level's worth of wasted Exp.
...
Thieves are also vastly more interesting to play than Fighters, so there's that.

That assumes the point is simply to have the baddest bad when the game is over rather than enjoy playing the character all the way through. For a lot of people that enjoy mages 13 levels of fighter are just too boring. (And again: I think 13 levels of Cleric would be more mechanically powerful anyway - 6th lvl cleric spells).

But I agree. I also like Thief->Mage Duals. Thieves are just fun.
I do allow my self to specialize as a dualed mage though (as per PnP).

I do like Fighter/Thieves. I have to admit, Kensai/Thief is genuinely immensely powerful.

Yeah, it would be the perfect use for the Kensai's abilities.

Onestep

syllog said:

Onestep said:

syllog said:

Pantalion said:

Since mage levels over 28 are worthless, Kensai 13 -> Mage 28 will both be mechanically superior (to a non-specialist) and have fewer wasted levels. For Kensai 9 dual, may as well go up to level 10 first, since there's a whole level's worth of wasted Exp.
...
Thieves are also vastly more interesting to play than Fighters, so there's that.

That assumes the point is simply to have the baddest bad when the game is over rather than enjoy playing the character all the way through. For a lot of people that enjoy mages 13 levels of fighter are just too boring. (And again: I think 13 levels of Cleric would be more mechanically powerful anyway - 6th lvl cleric spells).

But I agree. I also like Thief->Mage Duals. Thieves are just fun.
I do allow my self to specialize as a dualed mage though (as per PnP).

I do like Fighter/Thieves. I have to admit, Kensai/Thief is genuinely immensely powerful.

Yeah, it would be the perfect use for the Kensai's abilities.

While Mages of any kind trump pretty much anything else, the synergy between the Kensai class and the Thief HLA's is really good.

ReadingRambo

I've never attempted it, but a kensai thief would have good synergy with carsomyr. Is it possible to reach 10 attacks with two handed weapons with kensai thief? In terms of raw damage, a d12 hitting for max with significant crit increase from two handed style and with kai each hit would be awesome dps i imagine if you can hit 10 attacks. Plus MR

For added utility you could have a staff for backstabs then switch.

Corvino

@ReadingRambo - apart from WW & GWW, you can reach 7 APR under improved haste with a 2-hander as a Kensai 13-> Thief X once you get UAI. So Carsomyr, Ravager halberd, Staff of the Ram, whatever your fave 2-hander is can get a bit of use.

1 APR base + 1 fighter 13 + 1 Grandmastery +1/2 gauntlets of extraordinary spec (UAI, woo!) = 3.5
Double it with improved haste.

IIRC you're still quite a bit better off for DPS with a dual-wield setup using a speed weapon though, especially for Kensai->thieves who can exploit the Scarlet ninja-to.

ReadingRambo

I found a very slight disadvantage to using the scarlet ninja to. In the case of shadow dancers if u hide in plain sight after your first backstab your character might attempt the backstab with the offhand, resulting in a failed attempt due to it not being a backstab weapon. Not a big deal I wouldnt think, just something I noticed recently.

But yah I was thinking dual wield was probably better. Plus the EE version if the scarlet ninja to looks awesome. Actually they improved the appearance of a lot of my favorite weapons. I kinda miss Celestial Fury " shining colors by RGB " equip effect though.

Onestep

Well, just started.

Got a pretty solid roll pretty quickly.

Fighter

STR:18/06
DEX:10
CON:16
INT:18
WIS:15
CHR:16

I've got to admit that the DEX is a little low, but that can easily be fixed through the DEX gloves in BG1. If you use Xan's sleep spells, then the Gnoll stronghold is a joke, so it won't be hard to get hold of either. CHR is high because it's apparently mandatory for a romance that people keep telling me to try in BG2. And with any luck, by the time I get to the point where Wish is usable, I'll have 17 or 18 Wisdom, which'll make spell renewal much easier.

I just feel like something of a Glass Cannon right now.

GamingFreak

Kensai/Mage is capable of one of the most devastating combos in the game, that being Time Stop + Kai. With Time stop all of your attacks are auto-hits, and with multiple attacks per round and Kai to maximize your attack damage, it's 'GG' for all of your enemies. Only problem with Kensai/Mage is if you dual too early you might have some issues with Thac0 later in the saga unless you cast Tenser's Transformation, but you can just cast that after a series of defensive buffs and just go in and kill things like a standard Kensai would.

Should also be noted that a Kensai/Mage is indeed basically a Generalist mage with fighter levels. So yeah, Kensai mage is LOADS better.

Pantalion

Given that the average damage difference per hit for Kai is:

4.5 for Katanas, Halberds and Two Handed Swords
3.5 for Scimitars, Axes and Long Swords
3 for Bastard Swords (and the Runehammer)
2.5 for Clubs, Flails, Spears , Maces, Quarterstaves and Short Swords
1.5 for Warhammers and Daggers

I'm inclined to say that claiming it to be a "devastating combo" is a more than slight exaggeration. Kai helps backstabs, since that only multiplies weapon damage and that pentuples the above bonuses, but it certainly doesn't compete with Critical Strike, or even GWW, Timestop or no, even accounting for the Kensai's passive damage bonus.

SpaceInvader

Double post