human fighter, dual classing into wizard: still a path to power?

Archades

Soooo, I remember having a lot of fun starting in BG2 with a lvl 7 fighter, dual classing into wizard, and eventually unlocking the Tenser's Transformation spell. The end result (as some of you may know) was that you DOUBLED your fighter hit points (even though the spell was meant for wizards) and became the ultimate badass if you built yourself around this. I was curious if anyone knew if this had been 'fixed' in BG2 since I recently began my playthough of BG1 with the intention of bringing my character into BG2 (with this path in mind).
Right now, in BG1, I'm playing a pretty reasonable fighter, the only thing is that, in anticipation of dual classing in BG2, I have an 18 intelligence. Which is absurd if I don't intend to dual class with him later.

Actually I have two questions if you'll oblige me:
1) given the concerns I've expressed, is fighter dual classing into wizard still viable? (i.e. does tenser's transformation work like i remember in the EE?)
2) what would be the best level at which to dual class into wizard? I never bothered to dual class the main character in BG1 but I have a bunch of wizard scrolls saved up and would like to start a spellbook as early as possible, since starting to put together scrolls in bg2 can be a bit of a pain (I remember only ever finding one scroll of 'find familiar'). Basically, do I wait until lvl 9 fighter in BG2 to dual class, so as to capitalize on the fighter HP? or do I do it as late as possible in BG1 to have a good spellbook started..? If I dual class in BG1 where the hell can I safely store all these damn scrolls until then, too?

tl;dr -- whats the best method to dual class from fighter into wizard?

thx in advance,
Archades

mumumomo

Tenser's still works but is by no way the main strength of a dual fighter/wizard :
- you don't really need the THACO
- double HP is close to totally useless when you can use stoneskins, PFMW,...
- you cannot cast
- for a level 6 spell slot, improved haste is 100% better

For the good level to dual the most commonly used are :
- 9 to get the full HP, and extra PIP, while not impacting to maximum wizard level
- 13 to get the extra 1/2 attack and keeping a good wizard level.

For scroll storage :
- in BG1 you get the scroll case from the candlekeep mage that you meet again in Beregost (don't remember the name)
- exporting the scrolls into BG2 was possible before by pausing immediately when the game started (black screen) : your whole inventory from BG1 is then on the floor and you can pick it up. I don't know if this still works in BG2EE.

Mitchfork

mumumomo said:

- exporting the scrolls into BG2 was possible before by pausing immediately when the game started (black screen) : your whole inventory from BG1 is then on the floor and you can pick it up. I don't know if this still works in BG2EE.

This no longer works in BG2:EE, so you can't take scrolls from BG:EE unless you use some import trickery in multiplayer or EEKeeper it in. I wouldn't worry too much about it, though, since you make money pretty quickly in BG2 and the level 1-5 scrolls are pretty cheap at the various spell merchants. Find Familiar can be bought from the Shadow Thief fence in Renal Bloodscalp's place at the Docks if you were worried about that one specifically.

Archades

Very helpful gents. I don't particularly remember the impact of improved haste or (protection from magic weapons?) So i'm wastin time holding onto scrolls with my main character here, eh? Will keep in mind... on another note, did I screw up by going single weapon style? I've pretty much forgotten how a 2nd ed gish works after all these years...

stygga

Dual weapons will always outclass single weapon style. Offhand belm or kundane for the extra attack with your power weapon.

Corvino

Improved Haste doubles your attacks per round and lasts for 1 round per caster level. You can get to 5 APR using Belm or Kundane as an offhand, doubling to 10 APR for a decent duration.

And you didn't screw up going single-weapon, it's still viable, though dual-wield is far better for damage output. You don't really need the AC from single-weapon style as a fighter->mage, but the extra crit chance can be nice.

Aigleborgne

Improved Haste then Tenser Transformation. I strongly disagree with mumumomo.
You do need the thac0 at high level. At level 20, you suddenly have a thac0 of 1 (a mage would have around 6-8). And this spell even gives a bonus of +2.
As for hit points, protection from magical weapons, mantle, stoneskins, all of these are wonderful but in hard fights, you can end up with none. And as a last level 6 spell, I would definitly pick TR. If you can gain 100hp+, it's better than these protections because these HP "protect" you from anything. Physical damage is not the only threat.

The only thing to keep in mind is disable spellcasting. Only keep TR for the end, when most of your spells have been cast.

But well, I don't play anymore with vanilla spells, so much imbalanced...

mumumomo

With tenser as a final buff you are basically unable to recast your protective magic. I prefer BY FAR, being able to recast stoneskin (and mirror image, and PFMW,...) 2-3 times during a hard fights than to have 100 more HP (let's assume 10 damage/hit -> 100 HP = 10 hits = 1 stoneskin...)

As for the THACO :
With kensai 9 : you get a base thaco of 12. -3 from kensai 9, -3 from mastery, - 3 (5end game) from magical weapon, - 3 (5-7 end game) for strength -> THACO of -3 (-7-9 end game). Here tenser can be marginally useful against very low AC opponent (not that common).

With kensai 13, you get to a THACO of -8 (-12/-14). In this scenario tenser is just useless.
If you are not kensai it can make more sense.

Corvino

@mumumomo - if you're that worried about recasting protections then sequencers and contingencies can allow you to recast even while Tenser's is active.

Minor sequencer is fine for blur and mirror image (both at once), while from level 12 up Contingency can be used for stoneskin.

Aigleborgne

Like as said, I keep it for the end of the fight.
100hp = 10 hits = 1 stoneskins
And 3 or 4 damaging spells easily bypass 100hp and stoneskins is useless here. There are also elemental weapons that are not stopped by stoneskins.
Anyways, before casting TR, I would cast stoneskins first if I have it. A new stoneskins + TR and you are good to go.

In your maths regarding thac0, you suppose it is a kensai which would have a bonus of +3 at level 9. Not everybody play a kensai. I was more inclined to be a berserker/mage in fact, because rage immunities are priceless.
You also assume 18/100 in strength, which is probably power-gaming. My fighter/mage is usually around 15-17 strength. So, TR really give me a good boost to thac0 !

Now, I am not saying TR is ultimate but it is a good spell if use approprially. There are several level 6 spells that are completely overpowered like protection from magic weapon. It is almost better than any other mantle (except level 9 one) because most opponents have magic weapons ! These spells might obviously be a better choice depending on enemies.

mumumomo said:

With tenser as a final buff you are basically unable to recast your protective magic. I prefer BY FAR, being able to recast stoneskin (and mirror image, and PFMW,...) 2-3 times during a hard fights than to have 100 more HP (let's assume 10 damage/hit -> 100 HP = 10 hits = 1 stoneskin...)

As for the THACO :
With kensai 9 : you get a base thaco of 12. -3 from kensai 9, -3 from mastery, - 3 (5end game) from magical weapon, - 3 (5-7 end game) for strength -> THACO of -3 (-7-9 end game). Here tenser can be marginally useful against very low AC opponent (not that common).

With kensai 13, you get to a THACO of -8 (-12/-14). In this scenario tenser is just useless.
If you are not kensai it can make more sense.

mumumomo

I misunderstod your tenser as the last buff, sorry for that.
For strength, i assume 19 (either from girdle or from 18 + book from BG1)

Anyway, i guess we agree, although tenser is not a bad spell (far from that) there is much better ones in level 6 (for starters improved haste and pfmw)

Ave

Could anyone explain please how the weapon proficiency progression works after I retain my fighter levels? Say, I dualed @lvl 6, with *** in both long swords and duel-wielding. At mage lvl7 my figher is reactivated. Will I be able to ever put any more stars in longs swords or any other non-mage weapon (i.e. hammer or scimitar)? If yes, at what levels?

Thank you.

Corvino

You can put proficiencies into non-mage weapons as soon as your first class reactivates (at 1 level higher than the first class), and continue all the way to grandmastery. However, if you had ++ in daggers before dualling and put + in daggers whe you dual classed to mage, this would not stack and the + would be lost, reverting to ++ when you reactivate the first class.

In short - if you put further points into a proficiency:
1) Before reactivating they're lost
2) After reactivating then they're kept

victory_rose

But as a mage, you only get a new proficiency slot every 6 levels, so the opportunity of adding a proficiency slot only comes up at level 6 in the first game , and then subsequently only at 12, 18, and 24 in the second game (assuming ToB is installed), so that's not really something to rely on in playing the game.

Corvino

Dualling from fighter to mage is usually best done at level 9 or beyond anyway, at which point you already have grandmastery in the bag. Any further proficiencies are either to get your offhand penalty down or to diversify your weapon selection.

Ave

Thanks!