Fighter/Mage or Kensai>Mage
nadrathen
Member Posts: 5
Hi there, while i am playing my blade on the ipad Bg:EE, when i am traveling for work, i am now hungry for BG2:ee with some mods at home (PC). I am planning a battlemage. Which one do you prefer? In the past a Kensai>mage was very strong. Does the EE changed something? Or shall it be a multiclass Fighter/Mage? which weapon proficiencies are most usefull? Dual wield or one hand?
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A fighter/mage would be fun. I'd take longbow and 2-H sword (or maybe quarterstaffs) in BGEE. In BG2EE I would move to dual-wielding katanas (Dakkon's blade + Celestial Fury), with axes (Azuredge and Hangard's Axe) for ranged or undead (Azuredge). (A fighter/mage should have a decent strength or girdle in BG2EE, so the axes will benefit from the strength damage bonus). Eventually add quarterstaffs (if not picked up in BGEE) for the Staff of the Magi.
With the kensage you really need to use tenser's to melee very well due to your crappier thac0 and the lack of fighter hlas really hurts because you have to rest so much more.
You do get to chain contingency 3x ADHW a lot sooner though...
Personally, I trend toward multis if I want a fighting focused character with casting, while the dual is where I go for a mage that can stand in the front now and again and kill extras.
I'd say if you wanted a more caster heavy character, go Kensai/Mage, since they basically level up quicker and will probably get those higher level spells faster. Fighter/Mage multi is still very solid and capable though. A elven fighter/mage or a Gnome Fighter/Illusionist can mop-up enemies real quick. There's also the matter of grand-mastery but that's a whole different ball game that I don't feel like getting into right now.
Plus, Gnomes are actually awesome. It took me a long time to realise this but the truth has set me free.
Human Kensai 10 > Mage 30: Base THAC0 of 11, 1.5 attacks - 3 Attacks with Grand Mastery, 4 attacks with dual wielding, +3 to hit, +3 to damage (so THAC0 of 8, 5 with Grand Mastery Bonus). 2 uses of Kai per round. 8/3/5/7/4 saves. 9D10 + 20 + Fighter Con bonus x 9 + 3.
This is the first breakpoint, where you only lose one mage level, there's no real downside longterm to a Kensai 10 instead of a Kensai 9.
Kensai 13 > Mage 28: Base THAC0 of 8 (+4 to hit, +4 to damage, so THAC0 of 1 with Grand Mastery), 5/3/5/5/4 saves, 9D10 +12 +15 HP, 4.5 attacks whilst dual wielding. 8 proficiency pips + 6 (3 of which are useful in boosting Fighter weapons).
And... That's about it, in terms of physical combat, as the Kensai doesn't get Fighter HLAs, and only picks up ten Mage HLAs. They have 6 more spells spread across spell levels 6, 7, 8 & 9.
Meanwhile the Fighter/Mage is always level 24/20 by the cap.
That's a no nonsense 0 THAC0, 3/3/4/4/4 saves, 2 attacks per round, 3 whilst dual wielding, 3.5 with specialisation. 12 pips, but can't do more than specialise (-1 THAC0, +1/2 attack), but can use any weapon. As an Elf, you get an extra -1 THAC0, 90% charm/sleep immunity, the opportunity for ~21 Dex, but lose out on the potential 18 starting Con, as a Gnome you get to be a Specialist, for +1 spell/level and hilariously great saving throws.
Depending on armwear, they can either have 3 AC (bracers), or they can have +1 to hit, +2 to damage from weapon spec gauntlets (THAC0 of -2)
HLAs for the Fighter/Mage: 17.
HLAs for the Ken->Mage: 11.
So, in practice, the Fighter/Mage will have: More HP, a better THAC0, more attacks per round (Greater Weapon Whirlwind), a better AC, and with Critical Strike and Improved Haste, you're looking at Belm 9 attacks, all automatically hitting, all dealing critical hit damage.
The Kensai > Mage will have: 1 more level 6 spell, 2 more level 7s, 2 more level 8s, and 2 more level 9s, unless you use a Gnome.
In terms of spell access
(Kensai 13)
Level 1 spells: 1250000
Level 2 spells: 1255000
Level 3 spells: 1270000
Level 4 spells: 1310000
Level 5 spells: 1385000
Level 6 spells: 2000000
Level 7 spells: 2750000
Level 8 spells: 3500000
Level 9 spells: 4250000
F/M
Level 1 spells: 0
Level 2 spells: 10000
Level 3 spells: 40000
Level 4 spells: 120000
Level 5 spells: 270000
Level 6 spells: 1500000
Level 7 spells: 3000000
Level 8 spells: 4500000
Level 9 spells: 6000000
Effectively, pre-ToB, the Fighter/Mage will pretty well be the better mage, and the better fighter, for the vast majority of the game. They'll briefly even out late SoA, then the Kensai will surpass the F/M in magic acquisition whilst the F/M will far surpass the Kensai in melee (gotta love HLAs).
After 5,000,000 Exp, the Kensai's Caster Level is capped.
At 7,500,000 Exp, the Fighter/Mage's Caster Level is also capped. Between those periods is an at-most 3 level difference in caster level.
And of course, I prefer Fighter/Mage/Thief to either of them.
- Kensai reaches 5 apr at max (10 with IH): 2 base + 1 dual wielding + 1 grand mastery +1 Belm/Kundane
So no real need for GWW.
- A Kensai 13>Mage 28 has 10 spell slots more.
As you said, it has 1 more level 6 spell, 2 more level 7s, 2 more level 8s, and 2 more level 9s
PLUS 1 extra 6/7/8 extra slot for HLA
If you want to compare the damage, we have:
F/M => +2 (specialized) +2 Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization = +4
Kensai>Mage => +5 grand mastery +4 Kensai class = +9
But personally I prefer Berserker>Mage
+5 grand mastery + 2 Enrage (and immunities) + 2 Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization = +9
also, it can reach 9 apr, under the effect of IH, without wielding Belm/Kundane.
1 base + 1 (level 13 fighter) + 1 (offhand) + 1 (Belm) + 1/2 (specialisation) + 1/2 (Gauntlets of Ex. Spec.) = 5
However the F/M can combine the 10 APR with Critical Strike for guaranteed hits, or use GWW to get 10 mainhand attacks without needing to bring Belm along for the ride.
That said I prefer multiclass. It requires less effort to manage and you can be a race other than human.
Indeed, comparing a Berserker->Mage dual is pretty unfavorable considering that even with the Kensai's THAC0 bonuses the multiclass has better THAC0 than the dual for much of the saga, and the immunities while raging are fairly easy to duplicate with spells.
Another thing to consider is that the dual class reliance on grand mastery and very slow proficiency acquisition from mage levels means that they're married to a given weapon class, which can actually be a bit of a drag playing the game. They could choose to spread out more and not GM, but then they look even worse off in the fighting ability comparison.
By contrast the fighter/mage provides a nice mix from the first dungeon, and has more flexibility. Multiple specializations and fighter HLAs give you more "play room" throughout the game. It would definitely be my recommendation for most players.
Sure you don't get high level spells but it would take you forever to get those with a Fighter/Mage (Throne of Bhaal at least? might be wrong). And you have pure mage NPCs to cover the high level spells.
Also when you get Use Any Item, you can go really crazy with some items. Offensive Spin with Carsomyr while you're Hasted, Stoneskinned, Mirror Imaged etc.
If you don't get Keldorn, you'll be the only one that can use it, anyway. And maybe Hexxat also with UAI?
Kensai>Mage is just too tedious, cheesy and really annoying to play in BG1 or early BG2 since you'll get hit so often and then you need a ton of mage levels to reactivate it.
However they're a lot more fragile (no helmets, worse armour choices, slow spell progression) and lower damage output (poor THAC0, limited APR) in BG1. In BG2:SOA they can use spells to overcome a lot of this but the F/M still has access to higher level spells, a better THAC0, more APR and (pre UAI) better gear selection.
I'm playing a Blade through BG1:EE now, and have use Haer'Dalis a couple of times through SOA/TOB in the past. They're fun, and you do need to think of creative ways to overcome various difficulties. But F/Ms don't have those difficulties - they just function very effectively as soon as you get access to mirror image.
Not at all, I usually run off memory and playithardcore for data, and do forget or omit things. If you're referring to the other post you directed at me, however, please note that you were actually agreeing with me, the average damage bonus from Kai is equal to the maximum damage minus the average damage.
- A Kensai 13>Mage 28 has 10 spell slots more.
As you said, it has 1 more level 6 spell, 2 more level 7s, 2 more level 8s, and 2 more level 9s
PLUS 1 extra 6/7/8 extra slot for HLA
Incorrect. Fighter/Mages get them as well, and unless I'm mistaken, spellslots can be picked up before level 9 spells. Even if they couldn't, the F/M gets 7 HLAs, enough for the important spells and every bonus slot, after 6,000,000 Exp.
- Kensai reaches 5 apr at max (10 with IH): 2 base + 1 dual wielding + 1 grand mastery +1 Belm/Kundane
So no real need for GWW.
Oops, I was using the only BG:1 "+1 1/2" attack Grand Mastery rules, thanks for pointing that one out.
I was primarily referring to THF for GWW, otherwise Critical Strike is typically better. The Dual gets 3 APR with a two handed weapon (say, the +6 10% instant kill halberd), 6 APR with haste. The Multiclass gets a no nonsense 10 APR with GWW, 6 APR normally. You're quite right that they both get ten attacks with Improved Haste however, the F/M with the Gauntlets, the Dual normally, just the F/M gets to Critical Strike those ten attacks if they want to.
- If you want to compare the damage, we have:
F/M => +2 (specialized) +2 Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization = +4
Kensai>Mage => +5 grand mastery +4 Kensai class = +9
I didn't actually include damage calculation (unless I'm going senile) but this is quite correct, if you don't account for Critical Strike, the Kensai deals +5 more damage per swing, at -3 to -4 to hit (depending on elf-ness).
- But personally I prefer Berserker>Mage
+5 grand mastery + 2 Enrage (and immunities) + 2 Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization = +9
also, it can reach 9 apr, under the effect of IH, without wielding Belm/Kundane.
Agreed, Berserkers are hilariously overpowered considering the tiny, tiny cost involved in taking the kit.
I will say that berserker immunities are much better than the spell versions because they can't be dispelled and work in null or wild magic zones. I'd definitely take my 4 uses of critical strikes over Kai any day though...
While being locked to belm off hand is meh, I have enough proficiency points to also pick up halberd and use it with gww later on. I also have all of my useful Mage hlas.
Really debating lifting the exp cap now though because I don't want to hit it five minutes into TOB...
The current playthrough I'm on is one of my most thorough playthroughs. I'm in Chapter 4 with approximately 2.6 million XP. I've naturally done all Chapter 2 quests and I've done the first level of WK too. I had both Hexxat and Dorn join temporarily just to do their quests so I got XP there too.
I'm using a 5 person party.
I keep reading about people with absurd amounts of XP. I don't know where you guys find it
I also stole/scribed every scroll from a stealable vendor except for bernard who is just too frustrating to steal from. I actually have over 2 million exp on Nalia too (I used her for Chapter 2-3). I picked up Rasaad for his quest but not Dorn. Also did not pick up Anomen or Mazzy due to conflicts.
I did to all of the other personal quests.
I killed everyone in the City of Caverns and did the second hardest version of Ust Natha on SCS. Also, any time there were enemies that chain spawn like the elementals in the Underdark or the clicky thing in Unseeing Eye, I killed those until they stopped spawning (usually around 10x). I also killed Adalon after her quest (not much exp though).
I did two strongholds, Fighter and Mage.
Charname: Fighter/Illusionist
Hexxat (Romance) - it actually bugged and started all over in Chapter 6 from the first lovetalk...
Jaheira - Did her whole quest and got the Harper Pin
Viconia
Neera
Imoen
Actually yes, even in SOA, I just reloaded 3x on the Mage fight in the temple in Suldanesselar (due to chunking) because I insisted on not resting through that city (it didn't seem like there would be any RP reason to rest there, I'm not super anti resting but I don't like resting in the middle of an unrealistic situation - I will rest in Watcher's Keep because it seems like thats expected to be a long grind, but I'd try to do a whole level of any dungeon without resting, or only resting before the final boss of the dungeon). I was out of anything to protect Neera and Imoen from Horrid wilting and that mage had a horrid wilting x2 chain contingency on sight. With those two dead, I had a hell of a time breaking down the mage's defenses because my Charname usually just runs 3x breach and 1x ruby ray, most of which were gone already.
I guess I could have wish rested but I felt like I shouldn't need it... That teaches me to prebuff for dragons without considering the fights afterward! I won by targetting a swarm plague? (the 7th level druid one) on my Charname and having it land on the mage with Neera and Imoen both putting up chain contingency buff stripping spells (before dying to the ADHWs)...
Demogorgon was a hard fight when I didn't trap it with 5x spike traps...
The one really hard fight was trying Ust Natha with everyone just reaching HLA levels. That was probably possible in 1-20 tries but each try would take 2-3 hours real time, so I gave up and decided I'll one day build an optimal party for it when I don't plan to take Imoen. Whats funny about that fight is that rather than Mages reigning supreme it would be clerics (Firestorm ignores MR). I guess a sorceror abusing wish resting like crazy would actually be best but at that point its pretty pointless. It doesn't take much skill to wish rest, timestop improved alacrity, fireshields, SI abjur, SI div, stoneskin, blur, mirror image, pfmw, improved invis, dragon's breath, death fog, cloudkill, wish repeat...
I've yet to have to wish rest, and I've yet to fully run out of abilities in a big fight except for Ust Natha... That doesn't mean my squishies don't go pop whenever I get lazy though, so still lots of reloads. Hexxat backstabbing with the Staff of the Ram +4 in SOA is pretty overpowered though on enemies that are vulnerable to it, I think she hit for a 200 damage backstab... (She has the +1 Thac0 +2 damage gloves).
I find that unless I go to super cheese mode with my mages, fights are still pretty interesting. I don't think its all that fun to burn all my spells in one fight though so I rarely resort to that unless I'm on reload 4-5 or something. Also if I don't give them robe of vecna (I rarely do), Timestop + Improved Alacrity is a lot less over powered. When I REALLY have trouble, Neera is getting Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power, then she just goes in and mops up the whole encounter solo. If its something vulnerable to melee, CHARNAME would get that, some buffs and Improved Haste + critical strikes + Crom Freyr/Kundane destroys stuff.
The challenge is in keeping anyone from getting chunked rather than "winning" a fight. Any one of my mages can probably solo any of the fights at this point, Timestop on a fighter mage is just too good not to be an "I Win" button.
Plus ... you know ... elves are best. You can be a kensage but as a fighter/mage I'll kill you by waiting a hundred years and checking back later :P
Dual-class, I use more as an 'improved single class'.