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Thac0 bug

Creatures who aren't proficient with the weapon they're using receive a thac0 bonus equal to the penalty. So a fighter using a flail, with 0 points in the appropriate category, gets a +2 bonus to hit, evening out the -2 from the proficiency penalty. A thief gets a +3 bonus to hit etc. This doesn't apply to player characters.

1) Spawn an enemy fighter/thief/wizard etc.

2) Observe the attack rolls (the bonus).

3) Use crtl+Q to put him or her in your party.

4) Attack again and observe attack rolls; the bonus will be reduced.


The same bug is present in BG1EE.

Comments

  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    I don't know if it's directly related, but because issue 7410 removes all proficiencies, it certainly makes this bug very noticeable.
  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    @Succubus: Given the pretty major 7410, I'd be REALLY hesitant to open an additional bug on non-prof issues.

    I'll summon @SethDavis and @LiamEsler to this one to make sure they see it. If they want a second bug opened I'll happily do it, otherwise we're going to look at this as potentially being fixed by whatever happens with 7410.

    Do keep an eye on it after the next patch however. Hopefully if 7410 comes in this will be either gone or not-noticable...it will certainly be A LOT LESS of an issue.

    The really interesting thing about this is between this and 7410 it looks like we're pretty balanced...most creatures in SOA don't have proficiencies so they're getting penalties to attack roles...but since the penalties are actually being calculated as bonuses, it's like most mobs in SOA have proficiencies anyway. :)
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    Illydth said:


    The really interesting thing about this is between this and 7410 it looks like we're pretty balanced...most creatures in SOA don't have proficiencies so they're getting penalties to attack roles...but since the penalties are actually being calculated as bonuses, it's like most mobs in SOA have proficiencies anyway. :)

    No, they basically get nothing because the bug "bonuses" are being nullified by proficiency thac0 penalties.
  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    Oh, got you now. At least this is a little better than every mob in the game attacking with a - penalty to hit because nothing has the right proficiencies! :)

    I'll let Liam or Seth let me know how to handle this, but I'm starting to lean toward this being a different bug than 7410.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    sorry for being so late to the party (part time now). can you give me a specific creature file that this happens with?
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    99% of enemies currently don't have any proficiencies in-game because of a bug, which horribly weakens them.

    Some enemies aren't proficient with the weapon they're using by default. Two examples of such enemies are Suna Seni (resuna.cre) and Pai'na (sppain).
    I believe this bug was present in the original version, as well.

    It's important to stress one thing; the latter category is very weak regardless, because they lack the needed proficiency by default. Honestly, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to push them even further into trash tier.

    Perhaps it would be better to fix certain enemies instead, e.g. Suna Seni. http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/29170/suna-seni-ambush-encounter

  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    Succubus said:


    I believe this bug was present in the original version, as well.

    To prevent confusion; I mean the bug described in the OP.

    PS. Maybe it was even intended.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    ah, i should have read a bit closer i guess. i was referring to balancing described in the op and thought it implied that both numbers were visible somewhere.
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    They are. When you use crtl+q and look at the character's stats in the thac0 window it'll be written e.g., proficiencies: +2, but the weapon will have a thac0 bonus of -2 applied. That's for classes that get a 2 points penalty for not being proficient. A thief will get +3/-3 etc.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    ok... i may be lost then. I'm seeing the opposite effect

    the behaviour I'm seeing is that (using GENTH01.CRE):

    being attacked by them with them out of the party gives a bonus of 0 though it should be -3

    while being attacked after ctrl+q gives the bonus of -3

    I have a fix for this but i'm not seeing the +3/-3
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    When they're not in your party they always get this bonus, once you put them in your party if you touch their weapon or instruct them to attack they'll lose it.

    To see the bonus in the char sheet you need to:
    1) pause the game (I can do it without pausing but this way it's 100%)
    2) spawn it
    3) use crtl+q on the creature
    4) click the record icon
    5) select the character's portait
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    Weird, it doesn't work with genth01, try with resuna for example.
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    resuna is not proficient with short swords so it gets +2
    but it's using a magic short sword +2, so it gets the -2
    isn't that the expected behaviour?
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    The total thac0 bonus she gets from the sword, as displayed on the char sheet, is -4.
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    Here's the -4 bonus.

    Anyway, characters that aren't proficient by default are already very weak, removing this bug will make them even worse.
    The aditional problem with Suna Seni is that she's a level 13 fighter (wrong level), but her thac0 is that of a level 3 fighter and her saves are not much better.
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    Have you observed the to hit bonus when they attack before and after you put them in your party? What's written in the character sheet is not really the issue here.
  • prophet1prophet1 Member Posts: 172
    edited January 2014
    I suspect this is not a bug, but was done on purpose so that non-proficiency penalty only applies to player characters (in party).

    1) this would let the original developers not worry so much about misequipping the npc with a wrong weapon (such errors are almost inevitable in a game of this scope), they wouldn't be penalized too much
    2) this would let animals, beasts and similar creatures who were usually armed with special items with category = miscellaneous and Weapon proficiency type = 0 (unknown) not suffer penalties (they obviously shouldn't).
    Creatures who aren't proficient with the weapon they're using receive a thac0 bonus equal to the penalty.
    It's not that the creatures are getting a bonus, it's that they are not penalized in the first place - note that penalties are not in WSPECIAL.2DA, so they'are hardcoded.
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    edited January 2014
    prophet1 said:


    2) this would let animals, beasts and similar creatures who were usually armed with special items with category = miscellaneous and Weapon proficiency type = 0 (unknown) not suffer penalties (they obviously shouldn't).

    Creatures that don't have a PC-available class are not affected by the -/+ thac0 bug for not being proficient, even if they're wielding a normal weapon.
    So regardless of what you do, if you put them in your party or not, they'll have the same thac0.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    @prophet1 the penalties are not hardcoded, they are just in a different file (2DA or IDS) I think.
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