Dungeons & Dragons ... Lots and lots of Dragons (Potential Spoilers)
recklessheart
Member Posts: 692
Hey guys!
It's been a while since I made a good little discussive thread on the forums so let's see how this goes down.
So I know there are Demigods, and Tarrasques and half-demon-half-undead-werewolf-ogres a myriad of unimaginably powerful creatures riddling Faerun and the many adjacent planes. Yet more so than any of these enemies do I find the classic Dragon to be the coolest and most frightening of the great enemies an adventuring party is likely to meet their end to.
Yet, there seems to be a very flippant disregard for the rarity of Dragons in the setting, as if to assume that because they are in the title they are commonplace - and I feel that at level 10 or at level 30 a Dragon should still be a troubling sight for a party. However, once you've killed 4 Dragons, you're less inclined to feel that kind of trepidation. I have finally just completed BG2:EE , and with the inclusion of 2 Dragons in Dorn Il-Khan's ToB sidequest, I'd wager I've killed about 8-10 Dragons throughout the course of BG2:EE. In my character records, every single member of my party's most powerful vanquish was one of the Dragons that can be found throughout SoA and ToB.
If it were me, I would be happy for the game only to have 3 Dragons spanning the length of it. I retain that Dragons look so badass in BG and their grandeur never tires, but it is a little underwhelming to find that actually there are as many Dragons between Amn and Tethyr as there are goblins.
So what are your thoughts on the matter? I realise that BG2 cannot possibly be as low-magic as BG1, and it is exactly this contrast that makes both such wonderful games, but nonetheless I would like to think that I can expect Dragons to be a rare occurrence in RPGs, despite their common recurrence in most medieval-esque fantasy games.
It's been a while since I made a good little discussive thread on the forums so let's see how this goes down.
So I know there are Demigods, and Tarrasques and half-demon-half-undead-werewolf-ogres a myriad of unimaginably powerful creatures riddling Faerun and the many adjacent planes. Yet more so than any of these enemies do I find the classic Dragon to be the coolest and most frightening of the great enemies an adventuring party is likely to meet their end to.
Yet, there seems to be a very flippant disregard for the rarity of Dragons in the setting, as if to assume that because they are in the title they are commonplace - and I feel that at level 10 or at level 30 a Dragon should still be a troubling sight for a party. However, once you've killed 4 Dragons, you're less inclined to feel that kind of trepidation. I have finally just completed BG2:EE , and with the inclusion of 2 Dragons in Dorn Il-Khan's ToB sidequest, I'd wager I've killed about 8-10 Dragons throughout the course of BG2:EE. In my character records, every single member of my party's most powerful vanquish was one of the Dragons that can be found throughout SoA and ToB.
If it were me, I would be happy for the game only to have 3 Dragons spanning the length of it. I retain that Dragons look so badass in BG and their grandeur never tires, but it is a little underwhelming to find that actually there are as many Dragons between Amn and Tethyr as there are goblins.
So what are your thoughts on the matter? I realise that BG2 cannot possibly be as low-magic as BG1, and it is exactly this contrast that makes both such wonderful games, but nonetheless I would like to think that I can expect Dragons to be a rare occurrence in RPGs, despite their common recurrence in most medieval-esque fantasy games.
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Why, if this were PnP, we'd probably had to deal with all kinds of metallic dragons, ferrous dragons, gem dragons, chromatic dragons, lung dragons, planar dragons, undead dragons, faerûnian dragons, epic dragons, independent dragons, arcane dragons and even lesser dragons, amongst many others still. Which kind of explains the recent half-dragon baby boom as well - such cute little buggers they are.
I advise you to read Dragonlance Chronicles and see for yourself wether or not they succeeded in making dragons frightening and awesome again.
That said, I feel there is a healthy variety in the "monsters". Maybe not enough goblins and orcs compared to more exotic things, but I dunno how common they're supposed to be in Amn.
I agree that liches seem a bit too common. Hey what's in the cellar of this tavern? Oh... damn
A high level CHARNAME's party should be able to steamroll most dragons, simply because that's the level they've reached.
You want more Marileths?! I hate those bitches!
Repeatedly stoneskins, casts PfMW, innately immune to normal weapons, hits hard and accurately with poisoned attacks and throws Cloudkill just for the lolz.
They are the least fun I've had with topless ladies.
I wish the dragons in SoA scaled with party level a little bit, but otherwise I am happy with the 'dragon count' in BG 2 SoA.
Because I was keen to rescue Imoen, I left both the Windspear Hills and Shadow Dungeon until after the Underdark. Of course I met Adalon already, and as the first HUGE creature I came across, she certainly was intimidating and impressive, and I was relieved when I didn't have to fight her.
Thus my first dragon slaying was the Shadow Dragon... I fully expected to die, since you are given the chance to sneak past it, I assumed attacking it would be suicidal. However I decided to try it out, just to see what a dragon battle would be like... and won... quite comfortably, even though my Charname and party was not particularly optimised, and I didn't have any specific strategy beyond 'Breach until Minsc can hit it!'. It was slightly underwhelming given the buildup and the magnificent size of the beast.
Similarly Firkraag was also taken down relatively easily, which made his bravado and arrogance kinda silly. (Don't you know I just slew a Shadow Dragon oh mighty and wise Firkraag?) The Black Dragon was only difficult because I didn't know what Insect Plague did, and my entire party (5 casters) got spell-failure'd and had to rely on brute force to take it down.
I am not saying I found the encounters easy. It required some thinking, some effort... but it just didn't seem right that I was far more afraid of a pack of Gauths than a dragon... and of course Dragons popped up everywhere in ToB, and were mostly weak compared to an epic level party...
By the endgame, I didn't fear dragons at all, and had been lulled into a false sense of security that a dragon was always one target, which I can Breach, and then take down with relative ease. Draconis and Abazigal taught me otherwise...
Well, some of their abilities are not really translated well - I mean, imagine being slammed by a Dragon's paw - all that mass will be sending you flying, at the least. Not to mention being hit by the tail, or crushed underfoot, etc. I am pretty sure a Dragon would have no problem grabbing you with both paws, and holding you up to that terrible maw and just munch away.
That, of course, should be implemented.
As a DM, players FEARED my Dragons.
For high levels, just throw a Dragon Flight at them. Have fun!
Or perhaps a Dracolich.
The point being, that Dragons in D&D are just not done in a manner that I find appropriate. I always beef them up.
It was nice in NWN to use the extra Dragon scripts to allow flying, wing buff, etc. That certainly made things a bit more...surprising!
And thus, the evil party decided to go out of their way to travel to Umar Hills, as they'd learned earlier that the Shade Lord had a Shadow Dragon in his employ. They went through the ruins, coincidentally (and reluctantly) helping dispel the Shade Lord's darkness, until they finally got to the Shadow Dragon's lair.
Now, they await the beast, stuck in my current save file, because I just cannot kill the blasted lizard without watching someone die...
*sigh*
The Shadow Dragon was likely brought over from the Plane of Shadows by the Shadow Lord, and probably hadn't even left the temple, serving as the creatures guard.
Adalon was explictly camped where she was on the commands of a God, and kept a low profile from everyone but the Drow. Since she was relatively far from him, Firkraag likely didn't even know she existed. If he did, however, he still might not have picked a fight with her. Red dragons are stronger than Silver dragons, but they don't like the cold breath of Silvers.
Niziasdafdsgg (I'm not typing out his full name), had also explicitly only arrived on Irenicus's request, and even then with a healthy bribe and so likely didn't lair anywhere near Amn.
The number was certainly unusual for such a small region, but not impossible by any means.
In ToB, most Dragons were explicitly related to Abazigal, and helping him out. Their family bonds probably kept them from killing each other (as chromatics are wont to do).
Really, Beholders are my balance issue in this game. They range from almost unstoppable (You don't have the Shield of Balduran) to absolute jokes (You do have the Shield of Balduran), with basically no middleground.
Yeah I went to the Underdark slightly underpowered and without the shield. The Beholder tunnel is the only dungeon I entered and did not completed. (Did kill the Elder Orb and his mate at the entrance though... on the 3rd attempt.)
Anyway, I think the game does suffer from dragon inflation in ToB, but not in SoA. The dragons in SoA are pretty scary and I love the fights. In ToB, they are less impressive and it becomes more or less routine. Still, I have to hand it to the folks at Overhaul, the double dragon fight they added is super fun.
More importantly, I think the game has waaaaay too much level drain. I don't know who ever thought that mechanic would be fun. It isn't. I hate level drain, it's all over the place, there are few early items with Negative Plane Protection and the spell has a short duration that never scales. They even love moving your party for you before spawning level drainers on top of you just so you can't protect a few party members and let them tank. It's not fun. No thank you. Level drain BAD. No level drain GOOD.
What can I say, I love killing dragons.