Evil SCS party - arcane caster dilemma?

Skaffen

Hi,
I'm new to SCS (about 2/3 through chapter 2 with my "good" party) and of course I'm already pondering the next evil run. Good I'm playing CHARNAME sorcerer so I don't really want a mage type again.

Must-have: Dorn and Hexxat (not that I like them but I want to see their ToB content at least once, did SoA in another run but now I'm hooked on SCS so I don't really want to complete it).

Party setup could be something like:

CHARNAME Dark Moon nun (haven't had a full run with one yet, Hexxat romance)
Korgan
Dorn
Hexxat (maybe keepered to assassin or shadowdancer)
Viconia
Edwin

To those of you with SCS experience: will it be possible to finish the game without a second arcane caster, paladin and druid as anti-mage force? Core rules for now...

With 2 characters with detect illusion plus Viconia true seeing plus later thief hood and maybe the gem from Rasaad quest I think I can manage vs. illusion type spells. But taking down defenses with just Edwin seems daunting and the party is a bit magic-light for SCS I think... Or just trust your monk magic resistance and play spellbait till they run out? Poison weapon penetrates stoneskin AFAIK. Also PfMW / Mantle-type spells? If so it seems feasible...


Alternative 1: Fi/Cl CHARNAME, throw out Viconia and put in Neera or Imoen?


Alternative 2: Throw out Korgan and replace him by a caster? Maybe Haer? But since enemies dispel so much in SCS and take down buffs all the time I'm afraid he'd be killed all the time since he's weak as a kitten without his buffs. That's also what stops me from considering a CHARNAME blade for now. Dorn isn't exactly a super-tank either and potions of fortitude will be dispelled as well...

Any thoughts and suggestions?

Archaos

You could also make a Dragon Disciple or Sorcerer to compliment Edwin's spellcasting without needing any scrolls, plus you get a familiar (just don't select it as a Sorcerer spell, just cast it from a scroll).

There's this female EE portrait that is PERFECT for a female Red Dragon Disciple. Red hair, evil-looking eyes, red robes with two dragons on it. Change her hair to pure red with EEkeeper and it's perfect.

You got tanking and damage with Korgan, you have Dorn with a two-handed sword and generally utility with spells and debuffs and some secondary healing, Viconia for main healer and buffing, Edwin for all the scrolls you find and CHARNAME as a Dragon Disciple which unleashes destruction without needing any rare scrolls.

You could also be somewhat tanky with high CON and STR as well as buffs. But you don't need another melee character with Korgan, Dorn and Viconia. Though another spellcaster is always good to have for multiple Dispels/Breaches/Fireballs etc.

Serpion

Fighter/Illusionist will be great also. As evil you could get good bonus for fighter in hell trials But mages could be hard anyway. Other way you could use wands of spell striking, however you should "recharge" them by sell/bay cheat

Naastriil

For end game you Will need 2 wizards. Imoen stays in the party even if you go evil. Keep in mind that low rep is bad for vendors.
The Good part is you can keep evil npcs until 18 rep.

kamuizin

If slayer change where not broken, reputation could be controled with slayer changes, however that's not what happens, cos unfortunally the skill is configured in the game for one use only.

Skaffen

@Archaos I know they are great, that's why I have a sorcerer in my good run - but I don't want to play another arcane immediately afterwards or in parallel.

@Serpion On a full party run a mage multiclass will not get 9th level spells or only for the last fights. Fi/Pr muticlass is great but I wouldn't do it as a mage but dual instead.

@Naastriil I am afraid that you are right at least based on what I saw of SCS so far. So Imoen instead of Korgan or Viconia, hmm... back to square 1

kryptix

I would say that if your willing to reload, your party is doable because the few really hard Mage fights you might be able to get dorn with a poison arrow in before they get protections up. Edwin has a ton of spells too. Also both viconia and Charname will be 100% magic immune and Korgan wi be immune to elements.

A few fights will require you to abuse your magic immunity to run mages out of spells though.

vangoat

kamuizin said:

If slayer change where not broken, reputation could be controled with slayer changes, however that's not what happens, cos unfortunally the skill is configured in the game for one use only.

If you're actually playing evil and doing quests the evil way, keeping your reputation low isn't a problem, it's keeping it high enough that you don't keep getting attack by the Amnish military all the time (Dorn and his quests drop rep bigtime, Viconia joining, poisoning the grove, not freeing the slaves, collecting the Tirdir ransom etc).

As for the original Q, I'm doing an evil playthrough myself with PC (Dwarven Defender), Korgan, Dorn, Vic, Hexxat and Edwin. I haven't run into any problems yet (Just took the boat with Bodhi), with so much melee power it makes some parts easier and some parts harder.

Dorn's poison weapon is awesome at shutting down mages, just don't make him into a fallen blackguard since it's really handy. It'll hit through stoneskins but not PFMW/mantles. If they have fire shields up and you poison them, Dorn will take damage for every poison hit (This is silly). The fact that Edwin has a billion spells per level really helps, you can give him a couple of spell thrust/breach/pierce magics and still havent plenty of other spells left over.

Mages can be frustrating, but don't forget Hex is a great backstabber/trap setter.

Which part are you most worried about? In ToB edwin should be more than powerful enough on his own to take care of everything. Plus I believe you can get the robe of vecna in ToB and go beastmode.

I think the hardest part about the mages is early game, where you have limited access to dispel illusions/invisibility and no access to breach/pierce magic other than buying scrolls. If it's something you can't dispel just throw summons at them and run away, stuff like pfmw/mantle doesn't last very long anyway.

Skaffen

@vangoat Since I'm not very far into SCS with my first party (still in chapter 2, pondering if I will take shot at Firkraag at level 13or wait till after underdark and press on now) I can't say what specific issue I am worried about. For that there were too many surprises vs. a normal run that I do in my sleep

But I will probably give it at shot now with one mage and doing level 2 of WK before ToB since there you can find at least one wand of spellstriking IIRC.

kryptix

Skaffen said:

@vangoat Since I'm not very far into SCS with my first party (still in chapter 2, pondering if I will take shot at Firkraag at level 13or wait till after underdark and press on now) I can't say what specific issue I am worried about. For that there were too many surprises vs. a normal run that I do in my sleep

But I will probably give it at shot now with one mage and doing level 2 of WK before ToB since there you can find at least one wand of spellstriking IIRC.

You can probably take the dragons if you buff up. The key to killing SCS dragons is removing spell protections then letting improve hasted fighters go to town. I would get Belm and Kundane first and put them on your fighters before trying it though. Also if you can tank it with someone with protection from magic weapons it works out great.

Archaos

I think Blade is the other nice option as you suggested if not DD. Though you will be a weaker spellcaster but can fill many roles.

vangoat

Skaffen said:

@vangoat Since I'm not very far into SCS with my first party (still in chapter 2, pondering if I will take shot at Firkraag at level 13or wait till after underdark and press on now) I can't say what specific issue I am worried about. For that there were too many surprises vs. a normal run that I do in my sleep

Have you done the planar prison? I am having a hell of a time with it with my evil party For some reason compared to my last playthrough there are a LOT more yuan-ti and greater yuan-ti mages. They seem to pop up out of nowhere and I've faced about 10 without even hitting the warden yet. They're so friggin annoying that im happy to make them walk through tons of clouds.

Edit: The warden is just garbage. Absolute bull. Multiple HLAs, time stops, his prebuffs take up 2 pages, then he fires multiple chain contingencies and spell triggers. Feels like a dodgy tactics encounter. How the hell are you meant to beat this guy without cheese? LOL and he's only worth 10k xp. Less than half an adamantite golem.

kryptix

vangoat said:

Skaffen said:

@vangoat Since I'm not very far into SCS with my first party (still in chapter 2, pondering if I will take shot at Firkraag at level 13or wait till after underdark and press on now) I can't say what specific issue I am worried about. For that there were too many surprises vs. a normal run that I do in my sleep

Have you done the planar prison? I am having a hell of a time with it with my evil party For some reason compared to my last playthrough there are a LOT more yuan-ti and greater yuan-ti mages. They seem to pop up out of nowhere and I've faced about 10 without even hitting the warden yet. They're so friggin annoying that im happy to make them walk through tons of clouds.

Edit: The warden is just garbage. Absolute bull. Multiple HLAs, time stops, his prebuffs take up 2 pages, then he fires multiple chain contingencies and spell triggers. Feels like a dodgy tactics encounter. How the hell are you meant to beat this guy without cheese? LOL and he's only worth 10k xp. Less than half an adamantite golem.

I needed to tank the warden with PfMW to get him, but in some regards he is easier than a lich because no immunities. I also tossed 3-4x webs around him with clouds and drew him off by himself while his minions died...

He was very much dispellable though, so some breaches and secret words did the trick. Another thing that sorta worked was 3x malison, then a hopelessness/rigid thinking etc.

Skaffen

Archaos said:

I think Blade is the other nice option as you suggested if not DD. Though you will be a weaker spellcaster but can fill many roles.

Is that true in SCS? I'm a bit worried about the prevalence of dispels and a bard needs buffs to work. I've more or less stopped taking potions in mage fights since by round 2 they are gone anyway... Or do you continously have a spell immunity abjuration running the whole time?

Skaffen

@vangoat Did it, yes, with my good party, haven't started the evil run yet. Breezed through the initial rooms like nothing with Mazzy on improved haste and Tuigan with acid arrows, Keldorn with crossbow of speed with lightning and poison bolts and a surprisingly effective efreet as a frontline tank. Didn't have too much trouble with yuan-ti though I never faced more than 3 at the same time. Got them with a greator malison / chaos combo.

Warden had 3 and that fight took me an hour with a fighting withdrawel battle all around the dungeon back to the first room. Cost me a lot of wand charges on cloudkills and monster summoning to keep the warden occupied and draw out his spells. Kept Yoshimo with cloak of non detection and invi as the scout and then sent in the junk to occupy the warden and get the mages with cloudkills trying to not hit my summons. All the while dodging the stupid traps, micro management hell but great fun

Skaffen

@kryptix For me he was not dispellable, he had cast a spell immunity abjuration with the first salvo so I had to run down his multiple immunities since I had no ruby ray.

kryptix

Skaffen said:

@kryptix For me he was not dispellable, he had cast a spell immunity abjuration with the first salvo so I had to run down his multiple immunities since I had no ruby ray.

Well I do keep SI Abjuration on myself a lot of the time, and Divination if I use improved invis. You can even Improved Invis with a contingency on helplessness and use project image for free spells .

As for enemies with SI Abjuration, Ruby ray is awesome

vangoat

The problem I had was how do you get him to stay on one tank? If he wasn't doing damage he'd just switch targets and gib the rest of my party. You can't buff everyone to block his remove magic, which means that while he's hasted the rest of the party is sloooooow. Then I finally start doing damage > another stoneskin and a spell trigger with tenser transformation and improved haste.

Also, with just one arcane caster it takes a number of rounds just to get through his protections, and of course he always fires more during the fight.

I finally beat him, but it felt more like luck/fluke because he didn't seem to use his abilities that well for that particular attempt.

Skaffen

I didn't tank him with party members but kept him occupied killing half a wand of of summoning worth of ogre berserkers. Only when they did danage I moved in the rest.

vangoat

Due to the number of yuan-ti mages I had all my summons kept getting wiped with death spells, even though i'd send skellies in one at a time.

I just feel like if his AI is working right he's basically unbeatable at low levels unless you happen to have a F/M. For instance you seem to be able to drag the Yuan-ti and the other guys around him out, but he basically sits there and doesn't chase you. If he actually charged the party with the rest of his minions it's big trouble. Time stop > remove magic > imp haste > chunks everywhere. And he's not like Firkraag, once you enter the plane you have to kill him to get out again, there's no way around it.

I don't recall him being much of a challenge at all in vanilla.

Skaffen

Exactly, once I encountered him I knew I was in trouble with only one mage and that's how this thread started

Frond

I played through SoA with the exact same evil party as you're starting, but my PC was. Blade. I didn't have too much trouble throughout SCS. The warden fight in the planar prison was crazy indeed and a few others were tough. You might want another arcane caster if you are running a Dark Moon Monk, I relied heavily on my Blade for Dispels, Skull Trap, and tanking because he was always quite a few levels ahead of Edwin.

kryptix

You can probably pick up HaerDalis without really breaking the evil role but I hardly ever use him so I can't remember...

vangoat

Ok, what the heck do you do in the spellhold maze when all your items get taken away? I'm having trouble with the 3 yuan-ti mages + greater yuanti in the part where you put dace's hand in. I try not to rest too much so I've already used up Hexxats traps on the undead room.

I get Viconia to summon in a pit fiend but they just run away from it and crush me because I have no frickin items.

Honestly I feel like uninstalling this component, when you get your items back do they reequip, or do I have to spend 15 minutes clicking everything back into place and probably putting items on the wrong character? Also, does it mess with Dragomirs casque/cloak etc which are normally not removable?

kryptix

I did not use that component but from what I hear you use imoen for enchanted weapon to give to people and use armor and shield spells for defense especially bark skin and stone/iron skin.

I just felt that it'd be no fun but I suspect everything will just be in a chest.

vangoat

Yeah except I immediately dumped Imoen and told her to find her own way out because, well, i'm evil.

There's a +3 staff and a +3 spear that I've found, but with no armor fighting anything in melee is basically a no-no.

Also to get armor from the portal room.. you'd have to defeat a greater wolfwere and a PIT FIEND. With no items. lol.

Unfortunately I think this component unbalances the game a lot based on party composition. If you run with the evil party edwin and vic are basically the only ones that are any use. Korgan, Dorn, Hexxat and PC (If not a mage) just stand around being useless.

If you had 2 or 3 casters it would be a breeze with no items.

What is the timer on Bodhi? I might need to rest a bit I suppose.

Skaffen

Same here, didn't install it on my first scs run and not there yet anyway. But it forces you to use some of the lesser utilized spells for a change which by that level are actually quite good (magical hammer, flameblade, barkskin, enchanted weapon, ...). I came to love enchanted weapon in BP2 as it lasts 24h so you can cast and still rest and memorize your normal 4th level spells, saves you a lot of money there!

kryptix

vangoat said:

Yeah except I immediately dumped Imoen and told her to find her own way out because, well, i'm evil.

There's a +3 staff and a +3 spear that I've found, but with no armor fighting anything in melee is basically a no-no.

Also to get armor from the portal room.. you'd have to defeat a greater wolfwere and a PIT FIEND. With no items. lol.

Unfortunately I think this component unbalances the game a lot based on party composition. If you run with the evil party edwin and vic are basically the only ones that are any use. Korgan, Dorn, Hexxat and PC (If not a mage) just stand around being useless.

If you had 2 or 3 casters it would be a breeze with no items.

What is the timer on Bodhi? I might need to rest a bit I suppose.

Theres no timer on Bodhi, and any of the evil characters and probably solo the whole thing themselves if they are fully equipped, so basically what you end up doing is viconia sanctuary or invisible and using sunray on undead, and edwin blasting with cloudkills from off the screen for others. Firestorm from off the screen is awesome too.

vangoat

I really, really, really hate yuan-ti mages. I finally kill the 3 guarding the stupid door on spellhold level 1, go down to the next level, oh look another yuan-ti pack! great! there's no point spending the half hour it takes to dispel their protections because my fighters have no weapons, so i just have to spam cloudkills and death fogs and hope the stupid mage sits in it. Not my idea of fun. I want to get through this level ASAP, get my gear back and uninstall the damn spellhold component.

If you're playing a solo character (mage of some kind) I can see how it might be fun to play through with no items and it makes sense from an RP perspective, but from a fun perspective it blows.

Edit: Okaaaaay... wtf. I put it down to easy, where the hell is my stuff? Am I meant to fight Irenicus without any items?? There's nothing on the lower level and if I go upstairs I instantly get teleported to the wackos after beating lonk.

Edit 2: Just read the release notes and in the version I have you can't get your items until after the Irenicus battle. So while my clones were wimps, it's rather difficult to fight fallen planetars and pit fiends with fists. I put it down to easy and somehow got past this bit, but when you go upstairs you get accosted by Saemon. Want to take the boat? Okay, sure i'll just teleport you out and all your stuff gets left behind, never to be seen again. So your only choice is the underdark, because all your items are stuffed in Jon's desk. The other option is to use a mass invisiblity spell if you happen to have one. Oh, and for fun, Saemon will cast detect invisibility when you walk past and then autotalk you. So have fun sending hexxat on 10 trips to fill her inventory and then run back while hidden in shadows. All in all I would say the "party loses items in spellhold" component is very bad. Very very bad.

kryptix

@vangoat

Um you pick the boat then just walk back in...

vangoat

ohhhhhhhhh okaaaaaay! haha didn't realise you could get back in after he teleports you out.

still, after playing the inventory management game for 15 minutes putting everything back where it should be, i'm not keen to do that again.