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Thalantyr does not appear to care about his golems

KeithSKeithS Member Posts: 623
edited July 2012 in Fixed
The player can attack his golems without enraging the mage, which does not make sense.

--

Added ActionOverride("Thalantyr". Enemy()) to FGOLEM.BAF

(Originally found and fixed in DudlyFix)

[EDIT from Bhryaen]: Also added to this was a similar fix to the Kelddath Ormlyr sirine exploit whereby the player could kill the sirines without Kelddath even reacting. He now goes hostile.

Post edited by Bhryaen on
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Comments

  • aXidalaXidal Member Posts: 61
    edited July 2012
    Thalantyr in High Hedge and Kelddath in the Song of the Morning temple should turn hostile if you kill their Flesh Golem/Sirine guardians.

    Post edited by Bhryaen on
    Brude
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 905
    The flesh golems attack you on site in High Hedge, it's fair to say you can protect yourself (although I think they become 'friendly' as soon as you speak to Thalantyr.

    I agree with you on Kelddath and the sirines.

    AndreaColomboQuartz
  • aXidalaXidal Member Posts: 61
    I agree that you should be able to defend yourself, i forgot about that, but if you talk to Thalantyr so that his golems turns friendly, and then attack them, Thalantyr should turn hostile.

    Quartz
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    This is actually debatable in the sense that he needn't go hostile if you don't kill the golems where he actually witnesses them. In my last game though I did manage to make him go hostile with a rather poor backstab attempt on one of his golems, but I was playing a heavily modded BGT, so...

    BrighamFishQuartz
  • aXidalaXidal Member Posts: 61
    Although he have big house, I think he would hear if a fight broke out, wouldn't he?

    Brude
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 618
    If you talk to Thalantyr, who lives in a piss ant town, his golems should turn friendly until you slay them.

    Thalantyr himself shouldn't turn hostile unless you're attacking his guardians within his direct visibility.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Confirmation: Thalantyr now becomes enraged if the player attacks the golems.

    Additional Notes: The flesh golems in Thalantyr's sanctum have the avatar and voice set for ogrillons. BG2 has a Flesh Golem avatar, although I personally like the one that appears here better. They just need to use the standard "Golem" voice set.

  • BalquoBalquo Member, Developer Posts: 2,733
    Confirmed it does what it says. However, If you kill one of the golems outside then Thalantyr will not turn hostile.

  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 905
    Thalantyr does get enraged if golems are killed, after having spoken to him.

    However, if you kill the golems before first speaking to Thalantyr then he doesn't become enraged. Is this intended?

  • KeithSKeithS Member Posts: 623
    edited June 2012
    They start out as hostile, don't they? But then talking to Thalantyr changes them from enemy back to neutral. I don't think that Thalantyr should go hostile when the players attempt to defend themselves (as you'll never be albe to purchase anything from him after).

    There's a good case, I think, not to have the golems attack the player to begin with (unless they do something that warrents it).

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    Was the aspect of Thalantyr seeing the golems attacked/ killed factored in? This was mentioned in a Bugfixes thread: that it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to even know you've attacked/killed a golem if it's around teh corner. And is it a script of Thalantyr going hostile upon golems attacked or golems killed- i.e., he's fine with it until you win the fight.

    I agree with KeithS that it doesn't really make sense for the merchant to have killer golems ready to smash anyone who comes in. Either he's a merchant or he's not- though he is a reluctant merchant, it seems.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    They start out as hostile, don't they? But then talking to Thalantyr changes them from enemy back to neutral. I don't think that Thalantyr should go hostile when the players attempt to defend themselves (as you'll never be albe to purchase anything from him after).

    There's a good case, I think, not to have the golems attack the player to begin with (unless they do something that warrents it).
    The golems attack the player because they're near the back of the tower, where people aren't supposed to be. It's Thalantyr's security measure that the golems attack intruders; they don't recognize the player as "friendly" until he speaks directly to Thalantyr and identifies himself as non-threatening.

    The rest of it, I think, is probably fine. Thalantyr doesn't mind the player defending himself, but if the player intentionally goes after Thalantyr's guards, he's not going to be happy about that.

    Miloch
  • BalquoBalquo Member, Developer Posts: 2,733
    I agree with everthing Aosaw said.

    And my bug above about killing them outside. You can ignore that as that was when they were hostile to begin with.

  • KeithSKeithS Member Posts: 623
    edited June 2012
    Ok, I'm going to move this to found and fixed (for now) leaving the Golems as they were in the original (hostile until PC talks with Thalantyr).

    Thalantyr will go hostile if anyone attempts to destroy his golems after they've talked to him.

  • KeithSKeithS Member Posts: 623
    Thalantyr should be fixed and I just tweaked Kelddath to "strongly object" to the assault of his Sirines.

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited June 2012
    @KeithS, et al
    Is there some telepathic connection that mages have with their golems? I don't see the imperative for having Thalantyr go hostile if he doesn't actually witness the player killing the golems. Keldath and his Sirine muses, however, maybe more than a telepathic relationship...

  • KeithSKeithS Member Posts: 623
    It's a pretty enclosed space. I just assumed he could hear the combat.

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. ;)

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited July 2012
    Confirmed Successfully Meddled With:

    Thalantyr does go hostile if you kill one of his formerly hostile golems- whether he witnesses the death or not. He also does not go hostile if you attack and kill one of his precious golems if you simply haven't spoken to him yet.

    Apparently you can still kill his golems without making him hostile by attacking and then luring them outside for the kill BG2-style (something one couldn't do in BG1)- or kill them before talking to him- so there is that golem-killing option still available, but... I would rather it were redone so that he goes hostile only if he actually witnesses it, but even if a character "merely" attacks one of his golems in front of him- whether the golem were a red circle or a blue one. And the supposedly protective golems should probably not wander (like playful children or aimless bandits) ridiculously in the completely empty back halls but stand still in the inner sanctum to, you know, actually guard Thalantyr. I mean, ostensibly they're patrolling, but there's nothing back there to protect: all they're supposed to protect is in the inner sanctum. And then this way everybody would be happy: attack the guards and they'll necessarily be right in front of Thalantyr and it'll make sense that he's interpreting it as an attack on himself and go hostile... Except that that way you wouldn't be able to sneak in any golem kills at all without making Thalantyr your enemy as well- but at least then the encounter would be straight-forward and intuitive...

    Suffice it to say that the encounter remains absurd:
    1. Thalantyr could hear the golems' deaths on the other side of brick walls with the din of that elemental-magic-whatsit going on in the middle of the place reverberating off the walls...? Riiight...

    2. Thally now presumably cares so much for his golems that he'd fight to the death over them, yet he nevertheless somehow couldn't care less about you attacking them- even right in front of him, and even thrashing them to within a Tamoko's Fire Arrow damage from death- so long as you don't quite kill them- unless of course you haven't talked with him yet, in which case he's perfectly fine with the death of his golems at his feet. "No, do go on. You just enjoy yourselves as you like in my house. Those golems are just there to protect my life." Doesn't seem a Thalantyr stance to me. And in neither case of golem-bashing does it alter his dialog. And given that he supposedly hears the attack and goes red even if you've killed a golem far to the north side, why does he just stand there rather than immediately rushing to their defense on the other side of the brick wall that he can apparently hear you killing them behind... particularly before the player can finish killing them? Why wait like a dunce for his precious golems to die first if he thinks it's an invasion by Permidion Stark or something? And shouldn't bodyguards remain near the body they're supposed to guard- like placing one right next to him and one by the exit to the inner sanctum (like the golems in those NWN1 Chapter2E shops, for instance)?

    3. Though speaking to Thalantyr triggers the golems as blue circles- as if the golems are programmed to kill intruders unless the intruders are there to talk with Thalantyr- the discussion with Thalantyr isn't exactly friendly with the first dialog being a complete brush-off on Thalantyr's part:
    I don't have much patience for strangers on my property. Do us both a favor and move along.....unless of course you have magic for sale. From the looks of you, you don't look as if you could afford the items I have for sale. [END]
    He indicates buying magic, but not necessarily a store open to the public, and he doesn't exactly sound happy about anyone being there- quite the contrary- indicating nothing about what he intends with his golems, or that he's now comfortable with the party's presence and wishes his golems to be polite. Though it seems like he's asking about magic to sell, he ends the discussion there. The second dialog opens with:
    I sincerely hope you have some reason for bothering me. I've already stated that I wish you to leave.
    So despite the dialog options, again Thally indicates being "bothered" by the party's presence- and thus no reason why his golems should now be nice. From there the player can respond, "I'm outta here" (paraphrase) to which he responds "And well you should be" (paraphrase). Why not a hostile golem shooing them out then? Or an impudent "I go where I like" to which Thalantyr ends the dialog by responding that he's interpreting it as a direct threat to his life... with no change in golem circle status from blue. And if a new player does wander away from that menacingly loud internal area invisibly or stealthed, they can start the golems' wander script (seems to commence as soon as you come near) and thus have a hostile golem wander into the inner area where Thalantyr supposedly waits to be clicked to make them not-hostile.

    Thus there's no added intuitiveness built into this encounter rework at all. New players will just find themselves more often in battle with Thalantyr than they'd anticipated... and thus potentially missing the Melicamp encounter resolution and his store.

    Now I admit I like the counter-intuitiveness of finding menacing golem guards and a Thalantyr dialog that seems like anything but a merchant encounter, so I wouldn't change that, but making him insta-hate upon the death (and only the death) of golems he can't even see... doesn't help anything. Oh, why do I even argue in this pissant town...? :-P

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited July 2012
    Confirmed Fixed.

    Keldath goes ballistic with the rest of them if you attack one of his Sirine, erm, companions... :-)

    As to Thalantyr, yes, he also goes hostile... whether he witnesses the killing of his golems or no...

    Post edited by Bhryaen on
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Honestly, all these changes are starting to seem more work than its worth.

    Personally, I think it would be simpler if:

    - Golems are neutral when you enter the tower.
    - You attack them or piss-off Thalantyr, they all go hostyle.

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @Tanthalas
    Couldn't be more simple if the golems start neutral and stay near Thalantyr without a wander script. No extra variables to consider then and it looks better as well. It makes it impossible to ever kill his golems without making him go hostile either, but simple is simple.

  • MooseChangerPatMooseChangerPat Member Posts: 148
    Aww man, but I liked being able to kill Thalantyr's golems! Will you still be able to kill them as hostiles without him turning hostile at least?

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited July 2012
    @MooseChangerPat
    Essentially this Thalantyr fix doesn't fix much, but it partially addresses what appears to be an alliance issue regarding Thalantyr and his golems. At the least Thalantyr should go hostile if you attack his golems in his sight, but that's not what this fix does.

    At present the fix has been to make them like this:

    1. Before you talk to Thalantyr, you can slaughter them at will with no interest by Thalantyr whatsoever.
    2. After you talk to Thalantyr, you can attack one of his now-blue-circle golems and thrash it within 1HP of death right in front of Thalantyr without Thalantyr raising an eyebrow... but if you go that extra 1HP and kill one- even on the other side of the wall from him and his noisy inner sanctum- he and the other golem will supposedly recognize it and go hostile... but despite knowing that the killing happened, they don't pursue you unless you're in sight.
    3. After you talk to Thalantyr, you can attack a blue-circle golem and exploit the BG2 ability of enemies to chase you through transitions in order to lure them outside before you kill them. So long as you don't kill any inside the High Hedge, the pissant town wizard is unaffected.

    So it's not a move to sensibility, nor does it remove the ability to kill the golems with no consequence regarding Thalantyr. It just changes the killing rules a bit.

    I'd rather it be that neither golem is hostile unless attacked and that they remain without any wander script by Thalantyr because, well, that's where bodyguards would stay... and golems aren't known for chasing butterflies in empty back passages, hostile or no. So I'd put one next to him, and one next to and inside his inner sanctum door. This doesn't mean you can't kill them, of course, but you'd just have to wait until you've exhausted Thalantyr's store of all you want from him first before initiating battle with he and his golems- who would of course go hostile immediately upon being attacked and be within sight of each other so as to assist one another. It's more realistic, somewhat like the golems who stand near the merchants in Chapter 2E in NWN1, all of which go hostile if any are attacked, but most players like senseless golem-killin', so... that'll still be a more-than-viable option...

    Kelddath, on the other hand, is with his sirine, erm, acolytes at all times and goes hostile when they're attacked as should be expected, so a fight with his sirines is a fight with him...

    Salk
  • WispWisp Member Posts: 1,102
    edited July 2012
    Sinking several hours into a barely consequential, obscure aspect, that will only matter to those who care, of a merchant sounds like something that would land this squarely in modder land (who are the only ones who can realistically sink several hours into a barely consequential etc. etc.)

    Miloch
  • SalkSalk Member Posts: 59
    edited July 2012
    @Wisp Several hours? Those who care?

    I think that the changes above could be made in less than three minutes and I also believe that this project should be the result of the work of "people who care"...

    Or have I understood wrong?

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Salk

    I really don't think that that interaction with the thief justifies the golems being hostyle. That's something that I always considered a bug in BG1. Thanlantyr has a shop in there for crying out loud, why would he have his guardians programmed to kill anyone that came inside?

    Personally, I would have preferred if everyone inside High Hedge started off neutral and ALL became hostyle as soon as you attacked someone.

    ElectricMonk
  • SalkSalk Member Posts: 59
    @Tanthalas

    We can agree to disagree. But the Golems being hostile is most certainly not a bug.

    It is evident that Thalantyr is a reclusive wizard that does not want to be bothered. We do not only have Permidion's word about it (which, in my opinion, is proof enough that the mage does not like uninvited guests - he might want to sell his things only to specific people he invites personally) but also the very manual of the game mentions this (page 60) where there is the descirption of Thalantyr and I quote:

    "Thalantyr is a courtly, solitary man who enjoys walks in the countryside while armed with his Staff of Power. He dwells in a GUARDED estate known as High Hedge, west of Beregost."

  • CuvCuv Member, Developer Posts: 2,535
    Salk said:


    "Thalantyr is a courtly, solitary man who enjoys walks in the countryside while armed with his Staff of Power. He dwells in a GUARDED estate known as High Hedge, west of Beregost."

    Is that what is on his Facebook page? Or is that from his Harmony page?

    Boasterrodneyandsteptoe
  • SalkSalk Member Posts: 59
    @Cuv:

    Page 60, official Baldur's Gate paper manual.

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