Weapon Proficiencies and APR questions.
Heindrich
Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
So the biggest mistake I probably made in my first blind playthrough was my F/M weapon proficiencies. Since I didn't know what weapons I'd find, I ended up training in stuff after coming across a weapon. I also probably underestimated APR and never used Improved Haste until the very end. That's something I want to avoid for my next Kensai=>Mage Charname.
So I'd like to confirm that my understanding of weapon proficiency, dual-classing and APR is correct, so that I can better plan out my itemisation strategy.
1) Kensai starts with 4 pips. By the end of BG 1 he should be lv 7 or 8, have 3/2 base APR and gained 2 more pips to assign, which can break the ++ barrier of F/M MC.
2) Beginning the Dual-classing at the very beginning of BG 2 (what does a Kensai lose exactly during the Dual-classing process? Just Kai?)... he will gain another + at Mage lv6, and then further +'s at lv 12, 18 and 24. So in total, assuming he gets about 6M xp in total, he will end the game with 10 pips to spend.
3) He never gains more than 3/2 APR base, but with a ++ or better weapon proficiency, he gets another 1/2 APR. (Is it just me or are weapon mastery bonuses pretty tame? I mean +++ to ++++ is just 1 extra damage and speed factor?!) Do u get 1 more APR at +++++? I've seen some conflicting info on this...
4) Belm is good because it essentially provides +1 APR to mainhand weapon, as well as 1 APR with offhand. So with +++++, Charname should have:
3/2+1/2+1+1=4 attacks with mainhand, assuming the Grandmastery +1 APR is accurate and 1APR with offhand Belm. If he uses Improved Haste, that works as 8 APR with mainhand, 2 with offhand? (What happens if u use GWW? Is it just 10 APR with mainhand?)
5) On a related note, why is Kundane so popular? -2 THAC0 and Speed factor really THAT good? It is a +2 weapon, so if u use Kundane and Belm, u can't even hit a lot of enemies in BG 2...
Thanks in advance!
Edit: Typo corrected and formatting.
So I'd like to confirm that my understanding of weapon proficiency, dual-classing and APR is correct, so that I can better plan out my itemisation strategy.
1) Kensai starts with 4 pips. By the end of BG 1 he should be lv 7 or 8, have 3/2 base APR and gained 2 more pips to assign, which can break the ++ barrier of F/M MC.
2) Beginning the Dual-classing at the very beginning of BG 2 (what does a Kensai lose exactly during the Dual-classing process? Just Kai?)... he will gain another + at Mage lv6, and then further +'s at lv 12, 18 and 24. So in total, assuming he gets about 6M xp in total, he will end the game with 10 pips to spend.
3) He never gains more than 3/2 APR base, but with a ++ or better weapon proficiency, he gets another 1/2 APR. (Is it just me or are weapon mastery bonuses pretty tame? I mean +++ to ++++ is just 1 extra damage and speed factor?!) Do u get 1 more APR at +++++? I've seen some conflicting info on this...
4) Belm is good because it essentially provides +1 APR to mainhand weapon, as well as 1 APR with offhand. So with +++++, Charname should have:
3/2+1/2+1+1=4 attacks with mainhand, assuming the Grandmastery +1 APR is accurate and 1APR with offhand Belm. If he uses Improved Haste, that works as 8 APR with mainhand, 2 with offhand? (What happens if u use GWW? Is it just 10 APR with mainhand?)
5) On a related note, why is Kundane so popular? -2 THAC0 and Speed factor really THAT good? It is a +2 weapon, so if u use Kundane and Belm, u can't even hit a lot of enemies in BG 2...
Thanks in advance!
Edit: Typo corrected and formatting.
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Comments
For a Kensai->Mage dualled at level 7 or 9 APR is as follows:
1 (Base) + 1/2 (Fighter level 7) + 1 (Grandmastery) + 1 (Belm/Kundane) + 1 (offhand) = 4 1/2 total (3 1/2 mainhand, 1 offhand)
NB ++ in a weapon gives an additional 1\2 APR, +++++ gives a further +1\2 APR (+1 total).
O_o
Really? Is this guide inaccurate then? If it gives +1 APR and the other listed bonuses, then it's totally OP! And I totally should not have sold it T_T lol
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Kundane
If you dual--classed at higher of lvl7 you'll have 2 APR base if you have ++ with that weapon.
I recommend (for power gaming reasons of course, so you have to worry less) having points in Two Weapons Style OR Single Weapon Style, one gives you AC, but the other one will give you more APR, maybe you want to change them between both games (I did this once because of a mistake :P), SWS gives a bonus to Critical Hits that you should have in mind. If not, you can go with staves, you'll end OP anyway, so, if you want to use staves, go for the ++ in Staff and THWS, and go the the Twisted Rune in early BG2, in late BG2 you'll be able to use the Staff of the Ram and deal awesome damage and have a 2 APR base, with Improved Haste and Kai, you'll become a total killer in almost all the game. You'll be able to use the Staff of the Magi, it gives you AC (the same as the SWS), but with more bonuses.
A good thing in SoA is to dual wield Belm and Kundane, but by the middle of the game +2 weapons turn obsolete, so maybe you can go for a slow heavy-damage-dealer rather than a fast low-damage-dealer with Staves (as I said before, with 19 STR for the end of BG1 of course
Hope this was useful.
I should play Kensai->Mage one day... Really.
For a Kensai -> Mage dual to hit 5 APR base you either need to dual at 13 or use the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization from the final guardians of the Demogorgon on level 4 of Watcher's Keep. This will only happen in a weapon you are grand master in as well.
Since your no longer playing blind, the best main hand weapons for a Kensai mage should be:
Foebane +3 on level 1 of WK, you can probably get this with a level 10 party (don't do it until after your dual class is finished, or alternatively before you dual). You upgrade this to +5 and awesome life drain on hit after you get to Gromnir's castle in TOB.
Crom Freyr, you can get this as soon as you reach Chapter 6.
Runehammer +4/5, you get this in Chapter 9 but same proficiency as Crom Freyr.
For complete playthrough, maybe longswords for BG1 then Daystar => Angurvadal/Answerer/Blackrazor in BG2.
Club of Detonation is really good but too many things are Fire Immune. Similarly, Spectral Brand is really good but the upgrade comes way late.
Celestial Fury is also good but Hindo's Doom is not good enough in TOB to justify Katanas.
Axe of the Unyielding is great as well, and the progression in BG2 is great for axes, you get the one from Bernard and the one from Nalia's keep to cover 3 of the elemental damages, and use Azureedge for ranged damage/popping undead.
The problem with Flail of Ages +5 is that you get it super late in the game and it doesn't let you use improved haste.
Personally, I'm doing Axes and Hammers on this playthrough and its gone pretty great (but I'm using a shorty so it makes more sense).
Do keep in mind, you will completely mess up your proficiencies and waste pips if you put any points into a proficiency that you had while a kensai when you are a mage before the dual completes.
If your willing to metagame and powergame this time around, the best way to dual a Kensai-> Mage is to level to level 9 in BG1 (which is very possible if you are super completionist, grind a bit etc) then import to BG2. Dual as soon as you get to BG2 and never click the level up button. Use Yoshimo with potions of master thievery as soon as you are out of the gates, go steal 3 more potions of master thievery (maybe have to buy 1-2 to steal the rest) from Maevar's merchant in the Docks and the merchant upstairs when you first get to the Slums. Using these, go steal all of the scrolls from the Spell merchant in Waukeens, the lady in the back of the adventure mart, the lady next to the derelict house in the bridge district, and the one time merchant in the gates district. Temporarily kick everyone out of your party except Charname (this is early enough you can even kick jaheira without her being permanently gone), then memorize all of the scrolls, keeping 1-2 copies of each to give to your other mages later on. This will easily get you to at least level 10 and activate your dualclass.
If you do it this way, the extra pips you gain in weapons while you are a mage actually count as fighter/mage pips so they can be added to fighter proficiencies without overwriting them. Otherwise you will have to make sure to spend your mage pips on things you never had as a fighter until the dual class activates.
All in all, Longswords is the way to go if you are Evil. Bastard Swords are good in BG2 but really bad in BG1, and even in BG2 you have to go out of your way to WK early. Axes progress well overall, and Hammers aren't bad either. If you ever think you might be worried about tankiness (which as a Kensage I wouldn't even bother) then maybe flails for FOA + DOE.
That all said, I'm probably doing a female, dark elf Fighter/Assassin next playthrough, Keepered to have the same racial benefits as Viconia rather than what normal elves get in this game. She's going to use Crossbows, and probably longswords, because the daggers and shortswords in this game really are lacking. I wish they weren't though because I think dagger makes more sense. Lawful Neutral, assassin/enforcer who doesn't try to do evil, just does whats needed to get the job done...
It's probably best to choose your weapon of choice well in advance. You don't need to be proficient in Scimitar or Shortsword to get a benefit from Belm or Kundane - them hitting is a nice bonus but not essential. Scimitars are not a bad choice throughout the Saga though and there's an easy-to-get +4 example on the first level of Watcher's Keep.
EDIT: fixed.
Belm+Kundane is a great combo for a rogue though to hit 4 APR until they get UAI for Scarlet Ninja-to in the main hand. Belm usually goes to Jaheira for me though, and I let her main hand Spectral Brand and Club of Detonation.
Hmmm... I don't see a difference (yet... does it take time to update?)
Edit: nvm... I see it now. Thanks.
@kryptix
I won't be playing blind anymore, so I will plan ahead a rough strategy, but I won't be powergaming either. If I were willing to do that, I might as well just EEkeeper it.
What I did not realise however is that during the DC process, the lv6 + is gonna be wasted on a mage weapon class that Charname will probably never use, so if my calculations are correct, that'd be 9 pips in total.
I will probably put 5 into a specific chosen weapon class, and then have ++ in both single weapon and two weapon style.
I love Celestial Fury, but I wanna break away from the asian dude with katana stereotype, so I will probably mod it into a Long Sword. For the occasionally enemy immune to +3, he can always use MMMs or The Answerer in ToB.
Foebane is nice (I didn't realise it could be upgraded), but I don't like the fluff for it, or the fact that it's a bastard sword, which doesn't fit the RP well. I can picture Charname using long swords, scimitar, ninja-to and short swords... at a stretch, katana, but as I said, I'd prefer to avoid it.
@Eudaemonium
Wow the Kensai penalties are actually pretty serious... I didn't think of that at all. Well... I guess my messed up F/M wasn't exactly useless, so Kensage, even non-optimised, should be better and more than capable enough for the SoA and ToB. (I'm sticking to Core Rules and not gonna use SCS... possibly Ascension though.)
1. You can't get to kensai level 9 in Baldur's Gate 1 no matter how much of a completionist you are as the XP cap is 161000 and it requires 250000. Sorry
2. Scimitars are awesome despite being unable to upgrade the Spectral Brand until you hit Sendai's enclave. Why? Belm +2 right away. Dorn's quest has a +3 scimitar. First level of WK is easy enough and has a +4. There's a +3 from Joluv as well. The point is, you get a full dual-wielding set very early, and +4 really is enough through the whole game. The +5 upgrade is just a bonus. Scimitars get even better if you have Use Any Item.
@Heindrich1988
Remember that an early dual Kensage occaisionally has THAC0 issues so you will have to have some spell triggers prepared with Tenser's Transformation and Improved Haste for example to maximize your melee potential. Also you miss out on the great Fighter HLA combo of critical strikes + improved haste for 10 crits in one round.
That said, timestop with a Kensage hitting you pretty much kills anything.
Also, the pip at level 6 mage doesn't HAVE to be wasted. For example, it can be in single weapon style or two handed weapon style I believe and as long as you don't have any pips in that as a fighter before the dual, you can put the second point in after the dual. Then again speed factor is useless so you might as well only put one point in those.
The powergaming way would be to hold off on two weapon style until then but that gimps you for a long time.
Another thing to consider would be a berserker mage instead, they don't have the penalties of a kensai mage while rage makes you immune to all of the annoying statuses in the game.
Calling a multi kensai/mage balanced seems quite funny to me as either the dual kensai/mage or the fighter/mage multi are grossly OP and this one would be even worse.
@heinrich :
you seem to think a kensage is stronger than a figher/mage multi. i'ts not the case IMO, definetly not if you dual early. That being said, as pointed above, both are so OP, that they will walk through the game effortlessly
As for weapon selection, basically anything will work.
If you want to optimize (not needed), keep in mind that since you will lack PIP to get several GM. Therefore picking a weapon class with 2 good choices maybe better.
The best choices IMO :
Scimitars : best choice early on (belm, +4 from level 1 WK ), starts to lag later on
Axes : very solid early on (you can almost immediately dual 2 +3 axes, with added elemental damage.). Nothing great between that and the very end of the game (axe of the unyielding)
Hammers : starts very slow but crom faeyr and runehammer are great. Also blunt damage is very good.
Why would you say is Fighter/Mage stronger than Kensage?
I was pretty frustrated at my MC mages' slow spell progression. My F/M and Aerie never got lv9 spell slots until right before the final stage of the final ToB battle.
Yes Kensai is weaker in BG 1 than F/M, but from what I can see Kensage has a few huge advantages in BG 2.
1) Faster mage levels, earlier high level protection spells, sequencers, and all the other mage goodies, including TIMESTOP!
2) Timestop must be a game ender for most encounters. Unload Spell Trigger to breach defenses, cast Improved Haste, pile in with 8-9 APR and Kai... Hard to see who/what can survive that (except Timestop immune foes of course). Yes a F/M technically can do this too, but it takes 6M xp, so without cheesy 'farming', you won't get there until the very end, if at all.
3) Kensage get innate bonuses to THAC0 and AC.
4) Kensage can get more than ++ in his chosen weapon type.
The only disadvantages I can think of:
1) No warrior HLAs. But he's mage, he can use Improved Haste to replace GWW, so the only thing he'd miss is Critical Strike.
2) No bows. No biggie for BG 2.
3) No Gloves or Bracers... so basically no amazing gauntlets from WK lv5. This is probably the worst penalty, but it's not a total loss, I can give it to another NPC. I spread the gear anyway cos I don't want Charname to become overly powerful in relation to everybody else.
And they get damage bonus, not THAC0 bonus
Oh, I thought it's both.
But u make my point regarding xp. 6.5M total means u probably only got lv9 spells for Aerie (if u had her) just before Balthazar or maybe Balthazar. I never got to try a single Wish spell.
I tried the Wish spell, very complicated to use, highly recommended for Power Gamers, lucky people and wise spellcasters (Mage/Cleric (especially evil ones) are boss with Wish).
By the end of this playthrough I think I'll be close to 30 in both fighter and mage which basically makes me a god... You can't get anywhere near that as a Kensai Mage, but I really loved Kensai Mage in vanilla SOA. If you don't powergame exp, Kensai Mage is also a bit better.
you are right, the only drawback of the kensage is the lack of gauntlets.
However, while the kensage is a better mage (although a fighter/illusionnist would be roughly equal), the fighter mage is a MUCH better warrior (having access to more APR and HLA)
The only point of the kensage is to have quicker mage progression and therefore to get quicker to lvl 9 spells (= god mod)
The kensage gets there a 3M, the F/M gets there at 6M :
- in small groups (1-3), 6M is really easy to get (like mid-end SOA)
- in large groups, the kensage is probably indeed better since the arcane levels matters much more than anything else in the game.
If you really want to experience power as an arcane caster, play a sorceror.
They are 100 times stronger than a Kensage or any kind of mage.