Best Possible Shapeshifter?
Stasis_Sword
Member Posts: 91
I'm curious what the optimal shape changing build would be (doesn't have to be the shapeshifter kit). A couple disclaimers: I know they are suboptimal, I know they are better relying on spells or scimitars. However I'm curious what the best shape changing build would be.
Criteria:
1). Must be able to change form regularly (mage spells or druid abilities)
2). Must be able to fight as changed forms, and hit things (important)
3). Able to use forms for as much of the game as possible
4). Good amount of attacks/end game abilities.
Builds that look less likely:
Avenger: No attacks per round bonus. I don't think forms hit as magic weapons.
Fighter/Mage: 6 million xp before shape change is too late.
Pure Mage/Sorcerer: Similar to dual class, but less attacks per round
Berserker -> Druid: Fighter/Druid seems better except for the rage immunities.
Builds that look promising:
Fighter/Druid
Pros: HLA at 3 million xp, extra attacks per round, great thaco, fighter HLAs (whirlwind/crit strike)
Cons: Don't hit as magic weapons til HLAs.
Berserker -> Mage
Pros: Polymorph Flind hits as +3, extra attacks per round, most forms
Cons: Worse thaco (without tenser's), Users 9th level spell slot to transform
Shapeshifter
Pros: Werewolf forms help until HLAs (though still only hit as +2), descent thaco
Cons: No extra attacks per round
Any opinions on builds, gear that helps shape shifters, or experiences from people who have played them would be appreciated.
Criteria:
1). Must be able to change form regularly (mage spells or druid abilities)
2). Must be able to fight as changed forms, and hit things (important)
3). Able to use forms for as much of the game as possible
4). Good amount of attacks/end game abilities.
Builds that look less likely:
Avenger: No attacks per round bonus. I don't think forms hit as magic weapons.
Fighter/Mage: 6 million xp before shape change is too late.
Pure Mage/Sorcerer: Similar to dual class, but less attacks per round
Berserker -> Druid: Fighter/Druid seems better except for the rage immunities.
Builds that look promising:
Fighter/Druid
Pros: HLA at 3 million xp, extra attacks per round, great thaco, fighter HLAs (whirlwind/crit strike)
Cons: Don't hit as magic weapons til HLAs.
Berserker -> Mage
Pros: Polymorph Flind hits as +3, extra attacks per round, most forms
Cons: Worse thaco (without tenser's), Users 9th level spell slot to transform
Shapeshifter
Pros: Werewolf forms help until HLAs (though still only hit as +2), descent thaco
Cons: No extra attacks per round
Any opinions on builds, gear that helps shape shifters, or experiences from people who have played them would be appreciated.
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Comments
Fighter -> Mage helps with APR, but doesn't solve the thaco problem.
Fighter/Mage solves the thaco problem and has max APR, but doesn't get shapechange (and ability to hit as +4) until 6 million xp (basically end of TOB).
Or should I just accept that shapeshifting will at best be an ancillary ability?
Duel class Druid only (legally) gets worthless forms until HLAs.
Werewolf forms suck.
So go avenger. The forms are at least useful sometimes, thaco isn't too bad, and you can get HLAs that hit at +4.
at early/mid level : holy power + polymorph self. It solves your tacO issues, and the innate Apr of each form is sufficient for most enemies.
The most important : holy power, unlike tenser, don't disable your abilities nor your spellcasting.
When it gets tough, add righteous magic. At the begining, the ogre form will be devastating with righteous magic. The spider don't really need it (low physical damage). The flind is good with its +3 hallberd, and can easily kill trolls.
You can pre-buff with what you like (fire/cold shield, ghost armor, mirror image, IH...), and add nasty sequencers to the mix while you are polymorphed. A humble DUHM/whatever can help.
At high levels, well... shapechange/righteous magic is brutal. The golem strikes very hard, is immune to magic, and werewolf/regenerate is nearly indestructible.
And when you are bored with all your shapechanging, you can freely go full caster.
Soloed the game until mid-tob, when i get bored for some reasons. It was mostly a breeze.
If you aren't bothered about getting Shapechange spell, the Skald kit is worth a look.
@Fardragon yeah the only reason I'm hung up on shapechange/HLAs is the +4 to hit. I don't like the idea of the form being useless against enemies. I tried you priest -> mage dual and you were correct you can use the sword power while shifted. Sword spider with multiple 2D4 attacks is impressive, but the effect is rather short-lived.
@Eleminster thanks for another insightful response. If brown bear has the same to hit bonus as a greater werewolf that definitely makes fighter/druid look more appealing. Salamander hitting as a +3 really helps the avenger's case.
I think these are my two finalist at this point.
Fighter/Druid
Pros: HLA at 3 million xp, extra attacks per round, great thaco, fighter HLAs (whirlwind/crit strike)
Cons: Can only hit as a +2 til HLAs, Only basic forms
Avenger:
Pros: HLA at 3 million xp, can hit as a +3, additional forms
Cons: Lower APR, no fighter HLAs
A Fighter/Berserker->Druid dual is far less painful. You still get good THAC0 and APR even with a level 7 or 9 dual due to grandmastery. Due to rapid druid levelling at levels 1 to 10 downtime is also minimal.
The polymorph self spell is very good. Here is the trick load a sequencer with chill touch and a strength spell. This allows you to use any weapon in spider form with 5 attacks. I believe you can improved haste and hit 10. So it's pretty sweet.
As you lvl then you get lvl 9 shapechange and the golem hits like a truck and is +4.
I believe you can backstab with the golem as well if you dual from thief.
At least with avenger forms and polymorph spells you have utility forms.
As for the Helm cleric, what level did you dual at? The sword lasts 1 round per level, so you would need a good 10 levels for it to be useful.
Another option might be to start as an avenger then dual to fighter once you get to level 7 (I think that is when you get the forms). That would give you your shapeshifting fighter. You will need a strength tome.
@Derilore - How did your thaco hold up at higher levels? Also yes thief->mages can backstab as golems.
@Fardragon - You're sadly correct that the fighter/druid will almost certainly be more powerful unshifted (although Jaheria is actually more powerful in bear form until +3 weapons or belm). Yeah avenger -> fighter is pretty good if I'm willing to give up HLA forms.
I also read in a discussion (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/49835244) that there are only 6 enemies that require a +4 or better to hit in an unmodded game, is that right?
1) Kangaxx the demilich
2) the other demilich in Watcher's Keep
3) the demon lord in the Underdark
4) Demogorgon
5) the Ravager
6) Melissan
The Aurumach Rilmani, at the botom of watcher keep
Best End Game:
Fighter/Mage
Pros: 0 Thaco, extra attack per round, most forms, fighter HLAs, mage buffs
Cons: Shape change is not available until very late (6 million xp)
Best Mid Game:
Fighter/Druid
Pros: 0 Thaco, extra attack per round, fighter HLAs, natural ability
Cons: Stuck as a brown bear until HLAs
Fighter -> Mage
Pros: Extra 1/2-1 attacks per round, fighter kit abilities, most forms, mage buffs
Cons: Thaco could be better, shifting slightly later
Best Early Game:
Avenger
Pros: More forms than normal druids, salamander hits as +3, natural ability
Cons: No extra APR
At this point I think the avenger and fighter->mage are probably the best choice assuming you want to enjoy being a shifter in SOA. I personally prefer the berserker/kensai -> mage for greater diversity of forms, mage buffs and additional kit abilities. If you're willing to dual early (and read lots of scrolls) you can even transform right after the first dungeon.
You can really use any fighter kit. Dual at lvl 9 for HP as number of attacks from the fighter are irrelevant. You'll always have 10 apr with Imp haste. 5 without which is still huge.
With tensers you easily have 300+ hp. Add in the other Mage buffs and you pretty much become a monster.
You can also rock staff of the magi for dispels on hit.
Do you plan to solo? As I see it a multi fight/druid is only worth if you don't have more than 2 characters in your party.
You can't tank much while shape-shifting your ac is to high, taco not good enough and you will get killed very quickly, if you have to choose one, the frost salamander is the less shitty imo because you can deal cold damage as you get hit.
Werewolf shapeshifting isn't good because your taco is so bad which doesn't make any sense, any decent human being would prefer to engage melee against a fighter than a werewolf, I mean dah it's a fuckin werewolf... But in baldur's gate no, a werewolf is like a big teddy bear landing a successful hit on a 1/5 ratio