Ranged weapon balance
kaffekoppen
Member Posts: 377
I just want to get a few things out of the way (I have a bad case of "someone is wrong on the internet"). I don't hate ranged weapons. I think archer is a good class. I just think there are some issues with ranged weapons that make them a bit less fun and useful than they should have been.
Melee weapons deal more damage. I don't think there's really any doubt about that. If you say 10 APR with Firetooth +5, I'll say 10 APR with Staff of the Ram +6. I guess that's the way it should be since ranged weapons are, well, ranged. Still, I used some of the top ranged weapons in my last playthrough and was very disappointed with the damage. You seemingly need to be an archer to really deal damage with ranged weapons, but you don't need to be a kensai to deal good damage with melee weapons. Piercing resistances don't help.
My biggest gripe is about ammo though. I did a very thorough playthrough of the game recently, and I found *no* +4 ammo at all. Is it in Neera's or Rasaad's ToB quests perhaps? Without that ammo, forget about the ranged weapons that don't produce their own ammo. They are not competetive when it really counts if they can't even hit.
I think it would have made ranged weapons so much more fun if the enchantment bonus came from the weapon rather than the ammo (I don't care how PnP did it). It's a simple change that really makes ranged weapons interesting without making them overpowered.
Melee weapons deal more damage. I don't think there's really any doubt about that. If you say 10 APR with Firetooth +5, I'll say 10 APR with Staff of the Ram +6. I guess that's the way it should be since ranged weapons are, well, ranged. Still, I used some of the top ranged weapons in my last playthrough and was very disappointed with the damage. You seemingly need to be an archer to really deal damage with ranged weapons, but you don't need to be a kensai to deal good damage with melee weapons. Piercing resistances don't help.
My biggest gripe is about ammo though. I did a very thorough playthrough of the game recently, and I found *no* +4 ammo at all. Is it in Neera's or Rasaad's ToB quests perhaps? Without that ammo, forget about the ranged weapons that don't produce their own ammo. They are not competetive when it really counts if they can't even hit.
I think it would have made ranged weapons so much more fun if the enchantment bonus came from the weapon rather than the ammo (I don't care how PnP did it). It's a simple change that really makes ranged weapons interesting without making them overpowered.
Right, I want to comment on this one. I don't think we're talking about the same thing. It's not about strategic planning from one fight to the next, it's about things being over- or underpowered for a whole game. I don't think that ever counts as excellent game design. It also has nothing to do with the party concept at all if it's a whole game we're talking about. If you want to min-max, you leave the worst classes behind and bring the best. Good game design makes that decision very hard for you by making sure there are no clear-cut cases of one class being better than another.atcDave said:
This s the exact thing I disagree with. I like that balance is shifting and fluid. It adds to strategic planning to know that different types characters will be strongest at different points in their careers. Again, it goes to the whole party concept. At different times, in different fights,different characters will have to carry the load. I call that excellent game design.kaffekoppen said:Ideally I would want every game to be balanced rather than having one imbalance in BG2 making up for another in BG1.
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Comments
- different ammo types (as opposed to one enchantment on the weapon) give you more flexibility
- the trade is "doing less damage" for "taking less damage" (with good dex, the archer also has a lower chance to be hit than a frontliner who often gets surrounded - count in the various items that give AC vs missiles/reflect missiles; where frontliners more typically have to pick between damage type protection, but encounter all types)
I don't see such a big problem/imbalance with the way things currently are. I just wish BG2 would have more stores that sell ammo types other than +1/+2. The only costantly available special ammo are Bolts of Lightning. And I'm a bit frustrated at the moment to not find more Arrows of Biting for Eldoth (exported NPC, but his ability to create poisoned arrows doesn't work in BG2 - he's missing his trademark).
This fits my playstyle since I generally use a lot of meatshields abd with that approch ranged rocks even if gimped.
Do I wish for the fabled +4 magic producing long bow and that enchanted arrows actually add their plusses to damage? Of course!
But a whirlwinded Keldorn or Dorn with bolts of biting or lightning is great and can do this longer than the same character bring clobbered in the frontline...
Now if you favour Kensages or something like that of course melee produces more consistent output over time and not just peak.
Ranged is a lifestyle!
As for kensages, no, I don't favor them. I'm really a bit tired of them
PS: Side question. How many enemies does Called Shot actually work against? It seems like Called Shot is actually incredibly useful with Improved Haste, but it's kind of hard to tell whether it works or not.
In my case, I'm really tired of consoling 5 Arrows of Biting after rests to recreate Eldoth's ability and just want to go buy a stack or two. Yet they are nowhere to be found, and my inventory has 19 Arrows +1, 84 Arrows +2, 12 Arrows of Biting, 38 Arrows of Fire and so on, and it's annoying to have all those slots taken up and the inconvenience that archers don't switch to the next quiver slot if they run out of one ammo type. It's too much micromanagement to depend on ammo you find and makes the stores basically useless.
BG1 : clear advantage for ranged weapons, thanks to better thaco and very powerful special arrows. Also, strength is lower than 19 for most of the game which makes a huge difference
BG2 pre HLA : clear advantage for melee weapons. Dual wielding is grossly OP compared to the other styles. Good +3 melee weapons are very easy to get, while good magic arrows are very scarce. Also 19 strength is more common.
BG2 post HLA :
GWW with firetooth/special bolt does comparable damage to GWW with staff of the ram. Both of them are anyway overkill and will kill almost any ennemy. The difference is that the remaining attacks after the kill will most likely be wasted with the staff of the ram (need to reposition).
Furthermore, a archer wielding firetooth is probably the highest DPS in the game (topped maybe only by the pure kensai, which needs to be much more babysitted)
However there is only 1 firetooth in the whole game while powerful +5 melee weapons are plenty.
Defense-wise :
BG1 : clear advantage for ranged weapons again due to generally low HP of both the allies and ennemies (if they can't reach you, they can't hit you)
BG2 pre HLA :
Non mage types are weak defensively. Therefore ranged weapons are still good. However any fighter/mage can tank pretty much forever.
BG2 pre HLA :
with damage reduction from HLA, most fighter can tank effectively.
Conclusion : ranged weapons are much better in BG1. Hoewever, the more you get into BG2, the melee weapons get stronger. But ranged weapon never become useless.
Last note : One of the thing to consider is thats we often gives ranged weapons to squishy characters (like thief type) which obviously cannot compare DPS wise with fighter types. But it is not the weapon itself who is weak : it is the wielder.
@golingarf: We're going to have to disagree on one thing - I don't think it's good if ranged weapons are entirely unable to hit certain enemies when other weapons can hit all of them. No, Staff of the Ram does more damage. Remember that it has an absurd damage bonus of the best type of damage (and 1d4 piercing too for some reason) and you get to add your strength too. It's not true that the rest of your attacks are wasted, by the way. Most of the time there's another enemy nearby and you can easily spend your remaining attacks on them. I had no problems with this at all. In fact, with the Paws of the Cheetah, I didn't even have problems running between groups of enemies to kill them. Not maybe. Definitely. But you're right, an archer wielding Firetooth does do a lot of damage. I don't dispute that at all. Agree 100%. I just think the ammo system unnecessarily punishes the weapon class that is weakest.
I still don't think it's any kind of major issue, by the way. I just have to shamefully admit that I like debating this. I have thought about the game's lack of balance for a while though. I didn't think about it so much when I played the series originally, but now, many years later, I guess I think more about balance. Maybe too much, it's an old game that wasn't really designed to be fair in any way.
In short, throughout all the BG games there are significant advantages to being able to keep your distance from enemies while still dealing damage. Many enemies can't hit you at all from far away, and many have greatly reduced opportunities to damage or disable you. That you as a trade-off to this sometimes deal less damage or less efficient damage as a ranged weapon user is in my opinion very fair.
I think the whole fun of "the game" is making a character and party effective with what's available. I love the interplay of knowing different characters will be more effective in some situations than others. And I've never seen a situation where a single class archer character was suddenly rendered useless. Even if it turns out they can't fight the main boss in a particular battle, or they have to fight with a sub-optimal weapon, that's part of the fun.
BTW, bows start with several huge significant advantages; two attacks per round, launcher and ammunition bonuses stacking, and attacking from outside melee range. I don't think its an unreasonable situation give them unexpected handicaps (like a scarcity of high plus ammo).
And I think its very reasonable to say when you do find high plus ammo it should be expended only when very necessary. Resource management is an important skill!