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What Is The Most APR You Have Achieved (w/o GWW)

Just curious what attack/per round count is attainable w/o GWW in a way that is sustainable for a decent amount of time... In otherwords, what is the most APR you have achieved in BG that has lasted longer than 20 seconds.

(Obviously meaning Clerical buffs and such are allowed)
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  • golingarfgolingarf Member Posts: 157
    The best I can think of is a level thirteen fighter with grandmastery in dart and improved haste. That would give you 10, which I think is the most you can have without HLA's. But maybe I'm missing some tricks.
  • golingarfgolingarf Member Posts: 157
    @mumumomo - So is 10 APR a hard limit?
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Technically as far as I know 5 is the hard limit, but certain buffs (like Improved Haste) that double your APR will turn that to 10.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    @golingarf, as far as i know yes, 10/round is the limit. However i never tested that extensively.
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    edited January 2014
    @mumumomo
    Since you already pointed out that 6.5 attacks per round are lowered to 5, let's trade Belm/Kundane for some real weapon, shall we? :)

    Any dual wielding fighter with 13+ levels and grandmastery in both weapon types is going to reach 5 (and, naturally, 10 after Improved Haste). Belms and Kundanes are for those who can give max ++ to a weapon.
    Post edited by Lathlaer on
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    Are you sure you would get to 5 without using any speed weapon? That would mean that the spec APR bonus applies for the second weapon and i don't think it is the case (could be wrong though)

    Anyway, even at 4.5 base APR/round, you are right : it's better to use strong +5 weapons than speed/weapons
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    It was either 6 or 7, iirc. Kensai with off-hand belm, main hand Usuno's blade, Grand mastery in Scimitars and above level 13, and with Improved Haste.
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    edited January 2014
    @mumumomo
    Quite sure. I don't usually play dual wielders but I have Yasraena mod installed and unless she has some special rules of dual wielding (which I doubt), then yes, this is the case.

    Before 13 she has 9/2 attacks.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    I thought offhand APR is hardcoded to 1, which is why so many people offhand speed weapons in the first place? Huh.
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    edited January 2014
    Apparently before 13th level with grandmastery you have 2x1.5 base +1.5 for grandmastery. That's 4.5 (or 9/2) which would be consistent with what I have. Upon reaching 13 you would have 2x2 base +1.5 for grandmastery for a total of 5.5 which is reduced to hardcoded 5.

    Unless my NPC mod removes offhand limitation for her? Someone who has one of the core chars could check it.

    Or I have it all wrong and don't remember well. I think I still have a saved game with her before level 13. Will check after I get home after work.
  • kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
    edited January 2014
    You only get 1 APR for grandmastery. 1/2 at specialized and the other 1/2 for a total of 1 at grandmaster. With the gauntlets, you have 3/2 bonus APR in total. Maybe with some mods you get more, but not in vanilla BG2EE.

    Additionally, you only get 1 offhand attack ever.

    So before 13 you get 1.5 base + 1 from grandmastery + 1 offhand = 3.5, but maybe I'm misunderstanding the situation you're talking about.
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    edited January 2014
    Doesn't EE have "True Grandmastery" tweak built in?

    I have Saerileth, Yasraea, Varshoon, Rogue Rebalancing and NPC Flirt pack installed. None of them should have anything to do with APR.
  • kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
    I don't know what the True Grandmastery tweak is, but it's right there in the description ingame: 1/2 at specialized through high master and 1 at grandmaster.
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts

    The very bottom table. The easiest way to check is through THAC0 and damage bonuses since those also change. Shame that I'm not at home right now, I could check it in game.
  • kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
    The table used by EE is in between those two and I can confirm that because I've played without mods for a long time now and the ingame description definitely matches the APR I'm seeing. And you definitely only get 1 APR for the offhand too, no matter if you are specialized or not.
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    Huh. Then I guess I'll have to reverse engineer everything I have done to my game to see what caused this discrepancy. Sorry for the confusion.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Yeah, the most you can get by default would be 3 as a 13 Fighter with Grandmastery. DW sets that to 4. Speed Weapon would give you 5. If using TH weapons you could get 3.5 max with the gauntlets. DW w/o a speed weapon but with gauntlets gives you 4.5. This is the highest you can get in a single 'round' w/o use of IH or GWW.
  • golingarfgolingarf Member Posts: 157
    edited January 2014
    So it seems like even with a 2-handed weapon, if you're getting 7 APR with improved haste and the gauntlets, critical strike is a better option than GWW. So GWW is probably appropriate only for non-fighter warriors who missed out on the gauntlets and still need to use a two-hander for some reason. (I'm looking at you, Keldorn.)

    Edit: Or for fighter/casters who don't care quite as much about APR because they can't use all their attacks most rounds anyway.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    I've reached 5 as a maximum, even adding effects won't work, but I've reached 10 with Improved Haste.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited January 2014
    @jackjack because it gives the bonus to the main hand.
  • kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
    golingarf said:

    So it seems like even with a 2-handed weapon, if you're getting 7 APR with improved haste and the gauntlets, critical strike is a better option than GWW. So GWW is probably appropriate only for non-fighter warriors who missed out on the gauntlets and still need to use a two-hander for some reason. (I'm looking at you, Keldorn.)

    Then again, GWW always works, while some enemies are immune to crits. If you're facing any such enemy, Critical Strike is utterly worthless. I wish I knew how many enemies are immune though. It would be kind of sad to stock up on Critical Strikes and find out it never works when you really need it. I don't know about you, but I don't need help killing mutated gibberlings.

    GWW is also better when you get dispelled.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    There are quite a few ways to get additional Improved Hastes from items in case of dispelling. The Ring of Gaxx (which is likely to be on a high-end melee anyway) gives a number of 10 second improved hastes per day, and the improved cloak of protection +2 gives you a long duration improved haste once per day (23 rounds IIRC).

    If you've got 9/2 or 5 APR then this effectively gives you a whole bunch of GWWs.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455

    golingarf said:

    So it seems like even with a 2-handed weapon, if you're getting 7 APR with improved haste and the gauntlets, critical strike is a better option than GWW. So GWW is probably appropriate only for non-fighter warriors who missed out on the gauntlets and still need to use a two-hander for some reason. (I'm looking at you, Keldorn.)

    Then again, GWW always works, while some enemies are immune to crits. If you're facing any such enemy, Critical Strike is utterly worthless. I wish I knew how many enemies are immune though. It would be kind of sad to stock up on Critical Strikes and find out it never works when you really need it. I don't know about you, but I don't need help killing mutated gibberlings.

    GWW is also better when you get dispelled.

    It isn't worthless though, since with critical strike all your attacks will connect automatically, even if the enemy is immune.
  • kaffekoppenkaffekoppen Member Posts: 377
    OK it's not entirely worthless, but GWW will be better. I don't honestly know which enemies are immune though, so I can't really say what's best. GWW has its uses though, I can say that much.

    Improved Haste is a pretty big deal anyway, quite an overpowered buff.
  • golingarfgolingarf Member Posts: 157
    Yeah, I don't know who the hell decided that Haste needed improvement.
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    edited January 2014
    OK, I managed to trace where I was wrong. Apparently my Yasraena has base 2 attacks instead of 1. I don't know if it was mod maker's mistake or if I accidentaly changed it while messing with EE Keeper, but there it is. Again, sorry for the confusion.

    As for the other matter — IMHO it's worth to have few GWW's and few Critical Strikes as well. Also, Hardiness. I mean — unless you solo, there is hardly need to use more than 3-5 GWW per fight (most of them aren't that long), so basically it's a matter of choice what to take first.

    With Keldorn, I start with GWW and take it until I have at least 3 of them at my disposal. Then Hardiness.

    With dual wielder, I go for Critical or Hardiness first and then change them each level. I don't take GWW's, even if I don't get 10 APR.
  • kryptixkryptix Member Posts: 741
    Critical strikes is better if you run improved haste because guaranteed hits is better than leaving it to luck especially on really hard enemies who have like -20 AC.

    Then again I take a few gww anyway in case I ever want to bust out the ravager... Or maybe a ranged weapon.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    I think the main advantage of GWW is that you can use a 2h weapon, or even a shield and still get 10 APR.
  • biffyclangerbiffyclanger Member Posts: 216
    Pretty sure if you activate offensive spin while using MMM you can have 6APR. Can anyone confirm? I don't have access to game right now.
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