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Could a Bhaalspawn kill a god unaided?

This has recently been occupying my thoughts.

Could a Bhaalspawn kill a god?

Now, it is impossible for a mortal to kill a god without the help from another god according to FR Lore.

But a Bhaalspawn does have the help of another god here - Bhaal. So theoretically, it should be possible, right?

Comments

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Probably yes, given a suitable scenario, but I don't think it'd be a trivial feat.

  • MoczoMoczo Member Posts: 236
    edited January 2014
    I believe that in FR canon, demigods CAN kill full gods. The only issue is that, unless extenuating circumstances like the Time of Troubles are involved, for it to stick the god has to be slain on his/her home plane. Where they are at the height of their powers and surrounded by their most powerful and loyal divine followers. Which in some cases can include other gods.

    Have fun!

    elminsterDJKajuruThacoBell
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,594
    As far as lore is concerned, there are indeed cases of mortals that killed deities without the aiding help of other gods. The prime example being Finder Wyvernspur the bard: he slayed Moander's true body in the Abyss with an artefact he created, then consumed the fallen deity's divinity and finally ascended into godhood himself. Which kinda sucks, since Moander was my favourite god right after Ghaunadaur. :(

    jackjackDJKajuruThacoBell
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Finder was helped by Tymora (who was in sorts using him for revenge, as Moander killed Tyche). And Moander was technically dead, and down to demigod status.

    The Bhaalspawn can kill any demigod they so wish. Mortals can kill demigods without issue. Finder did it, the trio of Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul did it. The Bhaalspawn can not kill gods of lesser power, intermediate power, or greater power. It simply isn't possible for a mortal to kill gods in the rules of the multiuniverse. The Bhaalspawn is merely a child of a god, and there are lots of children of gods out there. They don't get a divine rank just for being a godchild.

    If the Bhaalspawn ascends, they'll become a Demigod, and then they can murder any God they so desire (excluding the Overpower, of course). The problem is doing it- the God has to be murdered on their homeplane, as @Moczo said. Gods can shape their homeplane however they so wish. They'll also have all their servants, and in lots of cases, allied gods with them. It wouldn't be an easy fight.

    SpaceInvaderDJKajuru
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    So basically, it's just like Afro Samurai. If you want to challenge the owner of the Number 1 headband (gods), you have to have the Number 2 headband (demigods), and anyone can challenge the owner of the Number 2 headband.

    ThacoBell
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    I am not considering what is involved - home plane, hard to do.

    What is being considered here is the possibility.

    We learned in NWN2 that someone who has the Souleater curse (which comes from Myrkul) can kill other gods. So, I am wondering if a Bhaalspawn with the spark of life from Bhaal can do so as well.

    For example, the Bhaalspawn later unlocks the ability to become the Ravanger. Can the Ravanger kill other gods?

  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    That's more of a difference of 2E and 3E then anything else.

    In 2E, you can not by any means kill any God but a Demigod unless you have Demigod rank. That's not a Forgotten Realms lore rule so much as it's a rule of every setting back in 2E, as all of them were tied together via Spelljammer and more importantly in this case, Planescape. This is listed pretty clearly in multiple sources. All the Ravanger is is the avatar of a dead god. That's not a Demigod. Without Demigod rank, no killing any Gods but Demigods, no matter what the rules. They even tried to go back on the Time of Troubles: Elminster could only destroy Bane (the first time- the second time, Torm did him in) because of Mystra's essence, Midnight could only destroy Myrkul because of Mystra's essence, Cyric could only destroy Bhaal because of Mask hiding as his sword, even though technically mortals should have been able to kill gods unaided due to them being reduced to just avatar state.


    In third edition, though, these rules are no longer spelled out in any sourcebook. Planescape no longer ties the cosmology together. Epic level rules are more tied to the setting, and the Gods are printed in the sourcebook as fightable opponents. You'll find two rules of thought on this: people who think that even though it's not spelled out, it's still impossible to kill gods (I think that's the camp Greenwood is in) but demigods for mortals, and then people who think that this rule restriction has been erased. It goes either way.

    NWN2 has the Souleater curse, where if you take the evil ending, it implies that you go on to trouble the gods. But it never states that the KC don't kill a demigod first, take their essence, and then go on to be troubling to other gods, either. It also seems to imply that you ate what was left of Myrkul's essence (something the Bhaalspawn doesn't get to do until they defeat Melissian).


    I personally think (and this is not supported by canon: it's just my musings), in that moment, after you've killed her but before you've made the choice of ascending or letting go of the essence, you may have a divine rank of sorts. That may be enough to be god killing. But I think it's also implied that your body can't take it: you either must become a god, or you must release it. You can't just go around with all of Bhaal's essence still in you without becoming a god yourself. Solar won't allow it. Now, who the Solar is working for is a mystery of it's own... Ao?

    Moradin
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    An Avatar of a dead God - and Bhaal was no Demi-god. More to the point - Bhaal in the sense is not dead, but "splintered" - still in existence, though not whole. If Bhaal was dead, then his stone body would be floating around somewhere on the Astral Plane.

    So becoming the Avatar itself should theoretically be equal to the god status of Bhaal in that sense - at least you have the support of a major god here - it really isn't all that different than what Finder managed to do with Tymora's help, is it?

    This is what I am pondering.

    I know we are semi outside of cannon here, because this type of stuff is really not well defined. It is just something that I was thinking on.

  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    Charname could wtfpwn any of em. Melissan has all bhaals power and he rolls over her.

  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    She had bhaals essence and just endlessly draws on it. Charname still just plays with her.

    ahhh poor little melly....hide and draw more power, summon awesome stuff and when you are ready charname will wtfpwn you ez mode again.

    They could send any enemy that even helm fears (watchers keep) and charname will just pwns him for the lulz

  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Ah, that's true. CHARNAME can't kill Amelyssan with the essences in her, qualifying her as a Demi-God: ravanger form or not. The essences must be released before Amelyssan can die. So the answer that CHARNAME can't kill gods is canon: if they could kill gods, they would have been able to kill Amelyssan with the essences or no.

    And last I checked, Bhaal is a hunk of stone in the Astral Plane- so is Myrkul, even though part of his essence is in the Crown of Thorns (and in the souleater curse, if we want to use NWN2 as canon- I'm not sure if it officially is or not). Where did you read that he wasn't?

    (And Demogorgon isn't a God, at least not in 2E. He may have divine rank, but he is not a God. Orcus, on the other hand, is a God. It's complicated.)

    Archaos
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    The Stone body of Bhaal is floating around in the Astral Plane? No, I did not know that. Where is this mentioned?

    Myrkul, yeah. One actually meets him (and his body) on the Astral Plane in NWN2 : Mask of the Betrayer.

    Is MotB cannon? A good question. A good question, indeed. I mean, Obsidian did get permission to do the story, and I know they had real problems with the Wall and all (especially due to Bishop) - so I think WotC was keeping a pretty close eye on things IMHO.

    I have no idea if it is considered cannon or not. I always thought that the official campaigns were cannon. Only some things left to the player is not considered cannon, as only "one" path can be.

    Also, does the Solar in ToB even know if Amelyssan can die or not? Perhaps the Solar means this in the mortal sense. It would be interesting to know from which power the Solar is from.

    Definitely not Ao - I don't think it has servitors, seeing how it is outside of the normal Deity loop. At least, it has never been demonstrated that Ao has - Ao even ignores worshipers.

    After all, Amelyssan does die, doesn't she? And, dependingly, CHARNAME ascends.

  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    In Faiths & Avatars. 'Currently adrift in the Astral Plane'. Bhaal is dead: the character only has one tiny piece of the Bhaalspawn essences. That's not enough for a divine rank or god killing.

    In general, Forgotten Realms video games are not canon- novels and sourcebooks are, but video games are not. I'm not aware of any sourcebook or novel that's discussed the events of Mask of the Betrayer (or any of the NWN games and their expansions, for that matter). The only thing that's happened is Zehir has appeared in fourth edition as an actual God (well, exarch or whatever they're calling demigods these days), but no mention was made about what happened down in Chult/on the Sword Coast involving him.

    That's the question about the Solar. I assume it in some way serves Ao, because to be blunt, it's no other powers business. The only other power who has any influence in the whole affair is Cyric, and Cyric obviously wouldn't have Solars serving it. Ao manages the gods, so having a lowly servitor of him manage this might-be deity makes sense to me. Of course, Ao may very well not have any servitors. It's never mentioned either way... I would tend to assume he doesn't, but I can't think of who else the Solar would serve.

    As for whether the Solar knows, I think it does. That Solar knows damn well everything in the series, or else has ways to get the information. I'm inclined to take it as it's word. Why Amelyssan can't die is a question of it's own (having divine essence certainly never prevented any other god from dying), but there's no reason to assume the Solar is lying when it tells the truth (and indeed, forces the truth) every other time you talk with it.

  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    But the Solar does lie, doesn't it? Amelyssan does die - so obviously she can die, and it says she cannot.

    So for that not to be a lie, perhaps the Solar really means that she cannot die in the mortal sense. Though perhaps on that Plane, in that condition, she really could not die - but could also not ascend. A cruel fate, truly - forever stuck, so close to succeeding, but so far, far away.

    I personally think the Solar is representing something else other than Ao. Ao would not be remotely interested in who or what becomes (or doesn't, for that matter) Bhaal. No Immortal rules are being broken here, so there is no need for Ao's intervention. Just normal (if one can even say that) God stuff. Ao does not intervene in normal God stuff.

    Since it is a Solar, it most likely is a power for Good (could be Neutral Good). Maybe some sort of Balance faction or somesuch.

    I mean, we do spend a lot of time with Good vs Evil, and Neutral rarely gets a seat "center stage" - even with the Tests in Hell, there are no Neutral options, just Good or Evil. Even at the end, the Neutral option seems to be to refuse the legacy and remain mortal (basically the only option other than be Good or be Evil).

    Nice find on the Bhaal thing. One thing I find disturbing is that normally there is a bit of essence still "clinging" to life on those corpses...if NWN2 MotB is anywhere near correct.

    Moradin
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    I really need to reinstall NWN2.

    jackjack
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    edited January 2014
    Yeah, if Ao wanted to intervene, he would've. Adventures of Bhaalspawn, although not insignificant, are next to nothing when compared to what Karsus did to Mystryl or what Cyric and Shar did to Mystra.

    Moradin
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    I think the only documented intervention from Ao was the Time of Troubles where Bhaal, Myrkhal and Bane decided to steal the Keys of Creation and basically challenge Ao for its power. So Ao basically spanked the Gods soundly, and gave them a good scolding to boot!

    At least, it is the only documented intervention that is mentioned afaik.

    Moradin
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    edited January 2014
    @WebShaman And afterwards, when he elevated Midnight and Cyric to godhood :)

  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    Did Ao directly elevate Midnight and Cyric, or were they elevated and then due to certain instances (I believe this was due to a relationship issue between Midnight and Kelemvor and Kelemvor not acting as a God should or somesuch) did they have to submit to Ao?

    I believe there was some lines alluding to this in NWN2 MotB, iirc.

    I didn't read those series of books (I dislike the Cyric character immensely) and the writing is...not my cup of tea, I guess.

  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    edited January 2014
    @WebShaman Ao appeared directly as an avatar (this was in Waterdeep if I remember correctly) and talked to Midnight, asking her if she would be willing to replace Mystra (who was killed by Helm). He also asked Cyric if he would be willing to take over Myrkul's, Bane's and Bhaal's dominions and naturally he also agreed. Kelemvor was, to my knowledge, actually the last one to ascend, taking over the Death Dominion from Cyric (in an epic battle).

    The last part is interesting, because it proves that in fight with even a greater deity there are many factors which need to be considered. After all, Kelemvor was "only" a dead soul when he fought Cyric. Psychological circumstances led to Prince of Lies' defeat :)

  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    edited January 2014
    The Wiki says :

    Cyric killed Kelemvor with Godsbane (Mask in disguise) but Mask then hid Kelemvor's soul from Cyric. 10 years later Kelemvor wrested the Death Dominion from Cyric.

    Nothing about Ao doing all you describe, curiously enough. It mentions he threw down the gods, and it mentions the mortals that assumed the newly freed portfolios and became gods.

    An interesting note :

    Myrkul, greater god of the dead and another of the Dead Three, was killed in a duel with Midnight, a mortal woman wielding the powers of Mystra, in the skies over the city of Waterdeep.

    Now, this is very similar to how a Bhaalspawn works - a mortal holding some of the powers of Bhaal. Granted, it is not all the powers of Bhaal (but we also know that Midnight did not have all the powers of Mystra, as part of her essence was hidden away by Azuth).

    Also, there were the Chosen of Mystra as well (who all contain some of her essence). And this little gem pretty much clinches it :

    Bane, greater god of tyranny, strife, and hatred and one of the Dead Three gods, was slain in a battle with Elminster by the lingering essence of Mystra.

    So how much "essence" does one need to have to be able to kill a god as Midnight did? And remember, Myrkul was a greater god.

    Since Elminster is able to do it with "lingering essence", how much does a Bhaalspawn need before it can kill gods?

    Incidently, Bhaal was not party to the theft of the Tablets of Fate. My bad. He foresaw his death and...yeah, BG I, II, and ToB.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited January 2014
    @Twani
    Actually I think that games are considered canon unless they contradict some other material that was released afterwards. Like the stupid novels.
    Though canon in the games is more vague since usually you have various choices that influence the story.
    Only a novel or official sourcebook that comes afterwards can contradict the games.

    Also the other gods actually have a say in this. Why?
    Because CHARNAME can either refuse godhood, so the good gods can lock the essence in Mount Celestia.
    Choose to become a good god, joining with the other gods.
    Choose to become an evil god and making Cyric his target and the next in line.

    The first two options are to the good gods advantage, hence the good Solar. And the evil option is something the good gods cannot prevent but at least they will try to stop him.

    @WebShaman
    Um, I just said in a previous post that Solar said: "But you cannot die. So long as the essences are within you."
    The only way for Amelyssan to die is by another god or if the essence is stripped from her. And she also says that since Amelyssan fused the essence to her soul, she cannot be stripped from it, so she has to be destroyed for it to happen.

    So what happens in ToB if you choose to give up the essence is that the good gods strip Amelyssan of the essence, hence killing her and locking it.
    Or the gods take the essence off Amelyssan, killing her again and they give it to you.

    And I doubt she was sent by Ao, because she says "the gods have decided".

    And to answer your last comment, Midnight killed Myrkul in the Time of Troubles.
    "The Time of Troubles was a period during which the deities of Faerûn were forced to walk the earth in their mortal avatar forms."
    Emphasis on "mortal". They weren't gods anymore, since divine magic stopped to work unless they were really close to their clerics.
    "Third, the characteristically immortal and aloof deities were now vulnerable (though still devastatingly powerful) and dwelling among the civilizations of Faerûn."

    SpaceInvader
  • LathlaerLathlaer Member Posts: 475
    edited January 2014
    @WebShaman
    What exactly do you mean? Nothing you posted contradicts what I wrote and I wrote it from the Avatar Tetralogy (it was trilogy when I read it first).

    Cyric killed Kelemvor while they were both humans. He used the Godsbane but didn't have a clue that it was Mask in disguise. Then after the battle of Waterdeep, Ao appeared and granted both Midnight and Cyric godhood.

    As soon as Cyric became god, he started to conspire against the new Mystra — and what better to use if not her former lover's soul as a material to extortion? So he started searching for Kelemvor's soul but couldn't find it (because it was still in the sword). Once Kelemvor's soul has been freed, they fought and Cyric lost in the City of the Dead. I left some juicy details inbetween, of course.

    It's also worth noting that neither Elminster nor Midnight fought actuall gods — they were only avatars, extremely weaker than their normal forms. The power difference is best shown in battle between Mystra and Helm (Helm being the only one who remained true god). While Mystra could hold her ground for a bit of time, she was quickly outmatched and killed by a normally much weaker god.

    Also, Bane was killed by Torm. He didn't die in battle with Elminster.

  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Bane actually did die in battle with Elminster. Myrkul, as god of the Dead, brought him (or his avatar, anyway) back to life, and then Bane died again in battle with Torm. Silly Bane. Then again, he was the only one of the trio to actually succeed in the whole coming back to life despite Bhaal and Myrkul's plans, so I guess he wasn't that silly.

    Honestly, though, the Avatar Trilogy is just... not that good writing. Time of Troubles is interesting enough, but the Avatar Trilogy (and even more, the game modules connected to it) is pretty darn boring for being a story about the conflict of the gods.

    Some interesting thoughts here. I'm not sure what else to say: I stand in my belief that the Bhaalspawn cannot kill any God but a demigod until they hold all the essences (and ascend) due to not being a god (just having some essence of a dead one), but I don't think it would break anything if someone wanted to write fanfiction or whatever where it happened. It's your Bhaalspawn's story, go wild.

    As for the video games, I generally wish they were canon. But I think a Forgotten Realms developer (not Greenwood, though) came out and said that they weren't, just novels and sourcebooks, on the old 3E forums. Don't quote me on that one, though- It's a definite 'I think I remember', not an 'I'm absolutely sure and can find the quote for you'.

  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 483
    A good point about the Time of Troubles as relating to the mortality of Gods. I didn't think of that.

    As for Bane, yeah - Myrkul raised him, only for Bane to get killed again..I suppose Bane likes dying (tongue in cheeck). He is so reckless (as becoming of his Portfolio), that it is not surprising that he dies alot. Kind of reminds me of Marvin Martian...hehe. Zzaaap! *helm falls on disintegrated Bane* "Need...re-bane-ifer"

    I used to not like Bane, but given the alternative (Cyric? Bleh!), I grudgingly accept him. I would prefer a much more...sinister and sly Bane, though.

    Moradin
  • ubermenschubermensch Member Posts: 2
    Hey guys, i think the solar was Ao's representative. Here's my evidence

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,558
    As far as lore is concerned, there are indeed cases of mortals that killed deities without the aiding help of other gods. The prime example being Finder Wyvernspur the bard: he slayed Moander's true body in the Abyss with an artefact he created, then consumed the fallen deity's divinity and finally ascended into godhood himself. Which kinda sucks, since Moander was my favourite god right after Ghaunadaur. :(

    NEVER underestimate the bard.

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