Dual Wielding Question

Linkamus

Does dual wielding become pointless once you have access to greater whirlwind? Or are there still some advantages to dual wielding I'm not seeing?

Heindrich

U can't use Greater Whirlwind all the time. The offhand weapon is good for providing bonuses, like Str in the case of Crom Faeyr, or immunities.

Also, I believe that most veterans would say that Critical Strike is better than Greater Whirlwind, especially when combined with Improved Haste.

Mitchfork

Dual-wielding with a speed weapon (Belm, Kundane, Scarlet Ninja-To) and using Improved Haste is the only way that I'm aware of to reach 10 APR without Greater Whirlwind. This allows you to stack 10 APR with a different HLA, such as Critical Strike or Assassination.

Linkamus

So would dual wielding a crom faeyr + axe of unyielding with improved haste + critical strike be more DPS than say.. Staff of the Ram with greater whirlwind? I'm very curious to know this. Maybe if I get some time I'll do some testing with cluaconsole.

Heindrich

^^ I haven't crunched the numbers, but I'm sure the DPS with Improved Haste + Critical Strike is far greater than Stam of Ram +6 and GWW.

You more or less match the APR of GWW, but on top of that, Critical Strike means that u are more likely to hit (and cause critical hits) AND you get the benefit of whatever buffs your offhand provides.

The only obvious downside is that GWW is one ability, Improve Haste + Critical Strike is Spell + HLA.

CrevsDaak

Linkamus said:

So would dual wielding a crom faeyr + axe of unyielding with improved haste + critical strike be more DPS than say.. Staff of the Ram with greater whirlwind? I'm very curious to know this. Maybe if I get some time I'll do some testing with cluaconsole.

Let;s make a different example, because the Staff of the Ram deals too much damage, if we use a different example, like a THS+5 with G whirlwind attack, yes, you deal more damage, but just because of the 25 STR and Critical Strike and Improved Haste, if you have 9 APR at max you deal much more damage (let's say you're a fighter so you have a +3 APR, 2 from GM and 1 form gaining levels, another half form some gauntlets and done, you have 8 with Improved Haste, so, yeah, it is truly powerful.

FinneousPJ

I literally killed Demogorgon in less than 6 seconds with IH + critical strike, dual wielding CF +5 and Belm.

CrevsDaak

FinneousPJ said:

I literally killed Demogorgon in less than 6 seconds with IH + critical strike, dual wielding CF +5 and Belm.

Haha, he did not even resist a single second.
THIEF TRAPS FTW!!!
Mwahahahaha!!

Linkamus

Is wearing Kundane or Belm really worth it since they are only +2 weapons? On more powerful opponents that need +3 or higher I would think wielding a TOB weapon in offhand would be better, wouldn't it?

Corvino

@Linkamus - The biggest strength of Belm/Kundane/SNT is the additional mainhand attack, really. So under Improved Haste, Belm/Kundane/SNT gives you 2 bonus attacks with Crom Faeyr/FOA/Foebane/Spectral Brand/Angurvadal/Whatever.

GWW is better for its duration when using a 2-hander or other 1-handers but Belm/Kundane/SNT are better over the course of a prolonged battle. Unless you can use GWW every round then IH + an APR weapon is better, really.

Linkamus

So with GM'd weapon in mainhand, and wearing kundane/belm in secondary, with IH, you'd get.. 8 APR with main hand if I counted my fingers correctly. Does that sound right?

So with that same setup, do you get 2 APR with the offhand with IH? Or does it stay at just 1 APR? (Either way it wouldn't matter against opponents that can't be hit with +2)

VS a TOB weapon in the offhand, you'd get 6APR with mainhand using IH, and 2 APR with offhand? Which is still 8 attacks with TOB quality weapons, plus you get a TOB weapon effect in offhand, which seems worth it to me. If Offhand APR doesn't get doubled with IH, then it would be a total of 7 attacks with IH, which is one less attack than if you were wearing Kundane/Belm. Even in that case, is one less attack per round worth losing a cool TOB weapon effect?

Let me know if my calculations are incorrect.

jackjack

You are correct: 8 mainhand attacks, 2 offhand.

kryptix

If you have gm with a fighter that's 3 attacks gauntlet for an extra half attack and a TOB offhand for one more that's 4.5 base 9 with imp haste 7 main hand 2 offhand, with crom Freyr as the offhand this is the highest dps combo if you foebane or club of detonation main hand but the club doesn't hit immune to fire for much.

Belm and kundane are best if you can't gm though ie multi class fighter.

Then again by the end of the game your off hand is usually defender of east haven because hardiness alone isn't enough to tank Melissan .

You have to notice that the top two handers don't actually do more damage per swing than the top one hand weapons which is why it's even comparable. Flail of ages +5 is actually the best gww weapon.

Then again I always have a couple of gww for the times when you can't have imp haste. Usually get 5-6 critical strikes and 4-5 hardiness too.

Corvino

It's easy to dismiss Belm or Kundane as "just a +2 weapon", but they're still able to hit the vast majority of enemies in TOB. If you use the Scarlet Ninja-to on a Fighter/Thief, F/M/T or Blade then it's even less of an issue.

Skaffen

It's interesting to note that monk is actually the class that least benefits from the scarlet ninja-to: Since you can't put pips in two weapon fighting you get a pretty steep thaco penalty if you offhand it. By the time that doesn't matter any more because your base is low enough, you have 4 = max attacks with your mainhand fist anyway so the speed effect is wasted and it's better to offhand something with a permanent buff or protection.

kryptix

Skaffen said:

It's interesting to note that monk is actually the class that least benefits from the scarlet ninja-to: Since you can't put pips in two weapon fighting you get a pretty steep thaco penalty if you offhand it. By the time that doesn't matter any more because your base is low enough, you have 4 = max attacks with your mainhand fist anyway so the speed effect is wasted and it's better to offhand something with a permanent buff or protection.

I guess you can main hand it early on for a big boost?

Corvino

Probably less of an advantage than you'd think @kryptix - the Scarlet Ninja-to does let you hit opponents that need +3 to hit earlier than with fists alone, but the +1 APR only puts you on equal footing with a monk's fists at level 6 where they have 2 unarmed attacks.

Monk fists do surprisingly large amounts of damage - d12 at level 9 and up to d20 at 15, so d8+3 can be a step-down. The only real advantages of the SNT to monks is being able to hit opponents that need magic weapons to hit, any THAC0 bonus is offset by lower APR.