Best Black Pits Party with These Stats?
golingarf
Member Posts: 157
So, I decided to roll stats for a party to take through the Black Pits I and II. I rolled 5d6-high-three ten times and planned to pick 6 columns to make characters out of. Here are the results:
STR 13 / 15 / 14 / 16 / 17 / 12 / 15 / 12 / 16 / 13
DEX 13 / 16 / 17 / 8 / 15 / 12 / 10 / 8 / 15 / 14
CON 4 / 13 / 15 / 14 / 18 / 12 / 14 / 9 / 11 / 13
INT 15 / 12 / 13 / 16 / 12 / 13 / 6 / 13 / 15 / 12
WIS 15 / 11 / 16 / 11 / 13 / 15 / 11 / 11 / 16 / 11
CHA 11 / 12 / 14 / 15 / 12 / 9 / 16 / 16 / 16 / 15
House rules: No using potions to learn spells (so INT actually matters to mages), no 3rd edition races or classes (i.e. no sorcerers, monks, barbarians, half-orcs, or blackguards. I'll allow shadowdancers because I think they're adorable.) No accessing inventory during combat - which in particular means no switching between dual-wielding and ranged weapons, nor between shields and bows.
I know what I chose to do with this, but I'm curious what kind of party others would have made. If you'll grace me with your advice, I plan on learning something.
STR 13 / 15 / 14 / 16 / 17 / 12 / 15 / 12 / 16 / 13
DEX 13 / 16 / 17 / 8 / 15 / 12 / 10 / 8 / 15 / 14
CON 4 / 13 / 15 / 14 / 18 / 12 / 14 / 9 / 11 / 13
INT 15 / 12 / 13 / 16 / 12 / 13 / 6 / 13 / 15 / 12
WIS 15 / 11 / 16 / 11 / 13 / 15 / 11 / 11 / 16 / 11
CHA 11 / 12 / 14 / 15 / 12 / 9 / 16 / 16 / 16 / 15
House rules: No using potions to learn spells (so INT actually matters to mages), no 3rd edition races or classes (i.e. no sorcerers, monks, barbarians, half-orcs, or blackguards. I'll allow shadowdancers because I think they're adorable.) No accessing inventory during combat - which in particular means no switching between dual-wielding and ranged weapons, nor between shields and bows.
I know what I chose to do with this, but I'm curious what kind of party others would have made. If you'll grace me with your advice, I plan on learning something.
1
Comments
1)
Column 5 is the only great roll you got for Const, also got the best Str roll, so some kinda warrior would be ideal. Maybe Dwarven Defender.
17/15/18/12/13/12
2)
Since Int matters, and you really need an arcane caster, and you refuse to use sorcerers, then I think you gotta use the highest Int roll you got, which is Column 4. Maybe a specialist mage of some sort, or wild mage, depending on how strict you are with reloading.
16/8/14/16/11/15
3)
I think magic is gonna be crucial to BP 2, so another arcane caster would be nice, especially if ur main mage is a specialist. Column 9 also has decent Wisdom, so seems ideal for a Mage/Cleric.
16/15/13/12/11/15
4)
Column 3 is such an all-rounder, I am tempted to say a bard of some sort, but his wonderful Wisdom would be wasted. So perhaps a Fighter/Druid here.
14/17/15/13/16/14
5)
I don't know if u need a thief, since BP seems to be mostly gladiatorial battles, but let's include one for completeness' sake. The next highest Dex u rolled is Column 2, which has decent stats for a Fighter/Thief.
15/16/13/12/11/12
6)
Running outta reasonable columns here... is column 1 a typo? You rolled 5 die, summed the top 3, and still got 4 O.o?! If Column 1 is a typo and u actually got 14 Cons, then it seems ideal for a bard-like character, maybe a Blade.
If column is unusable due to terrible Cons, then you're left with column 10... who really isn't good at anything in particular... and since u won't allow sorcerer... then perhaps just a poor warrior of some sort.
In general a fighter type will be either fast and agile, or strong and tough, not both. I try to avoid 18s (or higher), and certainly no more than 1 exceptional talent (18+) per character. So... with those principles this is my Black Pits Party:
1) Eleven Mage
Str: 8
Dex: 15
Con: 11
Int: 17
Wis: 10
Cha: 16
2) Human Kensai (to be dual-classed into Mage in BP2)
Str: 15
Dex: 17
Con: 15
Int: 17
Wis: 12
Cha: 12
3) Human Sorcerer
Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 12
Cha: 16
4) Human Cavalier*
Str: 17
Dex: 12
Con: 17
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
*EE Keeper Charisma to below legal min for class.
5) Half-Elf Kensai/Druid*
Str: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 15
*Illegal class modded by CrevsDaak for me. A few extra abilities to compensate for woeful primary attribute. (lore reasons).
6) Half-Elf Fighter/Thief*
Str: 14
Dex:18
Con: 12
Int: 15
Wis: 10
Cha: 15
*The Thief class has been modded to use Shadow Dancer instead, and added a few extra abilities for lore reasons.
There is one decent tank in there and I'd go with some fighter Mage types for the others for defensive purposes since they are lacking in stats.
17-15-18-12-13-12 Barbarian
16-15-11-15-16-16 Ranger/Cleric
14-17-15-13-16-14 Archer
16-08-14-16-11-15 Fighter/Mage
15-16-13-12-11-12 Monk
13-13-04-15-15-11 Mage
He said no 3rd ed. classes... otherwise that'd be obvious for a character with stats good for nothing else XD
@FinneousPJ: It's interesting that you picked exactly the same set of rolls as I did, but different classes. I didn't think anybody else would go for column 1! And yeah, I really wanted to exclude sorcerers because it's too easy to throw lousy stats into them, which would make this uninteresting, and I really think half-orcs have no place in second edition what with its exceptional strength rules. The others are just sort of a pet peeve. I always thought they were a little silly. I didn't like 3rd edition when it came out - but then I ended up playing it after realizing how wackily anarchistic AD&D was. But there's not much difference between a barbarian and a berserker anyway.
Oh, and miscellaneous notes: Bards need 12 Dex, 13 Int, 15 Cha and Druids need 12 Wis, 15 Cha, so only column 9 can be a Druid or Bard. Specialist mages have requirements too: Abjurer 15 Wis, Conjurer 15 Con, Diviner 16 Wis, Enchanter 16 Cha, Illusionist 16 Dex, Invoker 16 Con, Necromancer 16 Wis, Transmuter 15 Dex. For the sake of completeness, Rangers need 13 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Wis, and we all know about Paladins. I had wanted #1 to be a cleric/mage, but it's impossible: a cleric/illusionist needs 16 Dex, and I found out that a half-elf has to have 6 Con. Now that's a rule that doesn't often see the light of day!
Therefor if you are not allowing yourself a sorceror, i would recommend getting mage as multiclass and divine caster pure class - it will save huge ammouts of money.
I got a pure vanilla mage (Evil) and a Kensai=>Mage (Good), and the sorcerer happened to be Neutral! lol I didn't plan it, honest! XD
The monk could be a burden in BP1, but he's really great in BP2 and doesn't depend on armor or stats as much as most warriors.
I like this inbuilt loot randomizer too much to pick any other option. To the "scribe", I usually give the neutral answer ("do you even listen" and so on) since it's a mixed party (2 good, 2 evil, 2 neutral). Maybe that has an effect on something, but if so, I haven't noticed it yet.
1. "Dwarf" - LN M Dwarf Fighter/Cleric. 17 15 19 12 13 11. Hammer** Sword & Shield**
2. "Woman" - LE F Half-Elf Fighter/Mage/Cleric. 16 15 11 15 16 16. Morningstar** Sling**
3. "Snowman" - NG M Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger. 14 17 15 13 16 14. Hammer** Sling**
4. "Gramps" - NN M Half-Elf Fighter/Mage. 16 8 14 16 11 15. Greatsword** Longbow**
5. "Gnome" - CN M Gnome Fighter/Illusionist. 15 16 13 12 11 12. Spear** Shortbow**
6. "Wizard" - NE M Human Abjurer. 13 13 4 15 15 11. Dart*
Spoiler-laden Rambling Rant Below
I am definitely having a LOT of money issues with this party. I'm using Woman as my face character with 16 Charisma, and she really should be casting Friends, but I guess that would feel cheap. Buying scrolls for four mages is tough, and compounded by the low Int scores it is really a problem. Gnome is a major pain with 12 Int - he has only a 50% chance to scribe a spell. Everybody gets spells on a need-to-know basis, and I tend to have only one or two spells known per level. I also spent a lot on expendable items, which didn't help things any. @KidCarnival, regarding your complaints about armor: HAHAHAHAHA! My non-mages are using regular plate mail with no hope of ever upgrading. As of the end of the Fire Giant level, Gramps is still swinging a non-magical two-handed sword. I do always buy the best arrows though. In the beginning I was shooting arrows of piercing almost to exclusion, although now I've partly switched to +2 arrows to save money. Speaking of which, going into the Fire Giant battle, I accidentally bought +1 arrows instead of +2's. "It probably won't matter" thunk I, and I lazily gave them to Gnome instead of correcting my mistake. So I go in and there's a Fire Giant in my face in addition to four fire elementals. Why I didn't expect the giant yet, I don't know, I'm stupid I guess, and level 7. So I do my usual thing: Dwarf casts Strength of One like he always does and Gramps casts Haste like he always does. Then I have Dwarf walk up and try to tank the giant solo, which was pretty hubristic. It actually took the giant three hits to kill him - that little guy's awesome - which bought me the time to finish buffing. So then I get to swarming the giant, hitting him with everything I have. He seems to always make saving throws, and I just can't believe how much damage he's taking. Mid-way through the fight Wizard casts Chaos, which is so compelling that Dwarf RISES FROM DEATH to bash Gnome in the head. I didn't even realize what happened until I got the message "Dwarf deals 26 damage to Gnome," and I'm like what the hell, and there he is with that little atom swirling over his head and Gnome is at 2 hp. I guess he was so confused he forgot he was dead. And then he starts healing, due to having 21 Con from DUHM. Anyway, eventually, FINALLY, Woman manages to fell the giant with a bullet to the back, and I think the fight is over. By now the Chaos has worn off and Dwarf has remembered to be dead again, and I go about cleaning up the fire elementals. Oops, there's a fireball, I forgot they did that. That wiped out my whole party except for Gnome (still at 2 hp) and Wizard. Now, if only I had some +2 arrows, it would be quite simple to kite these things and let them explode at a distance. But I only have +1 weapons. Because of the arrows that weren't going to matter. At the end, I went invisible and it was a stalemate, but it appears Baeloth doesn't do draws so I had to reload. The second time of course was boringly easy now that I knew what to do. I kept my distance and pelted the giant to death pretty quickly, and likewise the elementals. So I've reloaded four times, which is kind of meh, but just okay enough that I won't restart.
So that's where I am right now. I think the party works pretty well and there's not a lot I would change. Some of the fights have been pretty interesting and I've ended up having to use tactics that were novel to me. Amazingly, I think in the last five battles I haven't cast Web. I always prepare four or five copies, but haven't seen fit to use them. Not that it's not useful at all - I beat the Red Wizards with barely a scratch that way - but the designers have been pretty good about setting up scenarios that require a little more thought. I think Gnome might not be optimal, which is interesting because I figured fighter/illusionist to be the best class in the game. But actually he might be better off as an illusionist/thief, which is almost the only way to backstab in BP, or maybe a F/M/T. Of course it's possible he just annoys me due to the incredible amount of money he's eaten with his 12 Int. Dwarf is definitely the star here, and I'm now pretty much convinced that a dwarf F/C is the best tanking character. Although, I must say, after the fire giant battle he is a fighter 7/cleric 7, while Woman is a fighter 7/mage 7/cleric 7. Definitely something to think about. Also, everybody raves about cleric/rangers, but I don't see how they're much different. Snowman's druid spells have made a few appearances but not much of an impact, and I don't see as it's worth a point of constitution. As for the monk suggestion, I'm reluctant to choose a complete non-spellcaster, and I definitely would be reluctant about one who's immune to Haste. That has to be the worst immunity ever conceived. But I might try it someday, just to see what I'm missing.
Doing BP2 with no level 8 spells will be interesting. (Gramps will get a level 8 spell at the same time as Wizard reaches level 22. Wizard will be limited to level 7 spells due to intelligence.) I think I'll probably manage though.