Overpowered Classes (The fun Begins)
Derilore
Member Posts: 44
So being a bit of a powergamer I always debate and test what classes I want to play. So far I've narrowed down the most powerful classes and could use some more experienced players tips.
Dual Figher/Mage (pref berserker)
- With Polymorph self sword spider this guy does 10 attacks per round with any weapon. Still gets access to high lvl mages spells, huge HP (300+ with Tensers). Berserker rage gives nice immunities. All in all a pretty strong class.
Blade
- Again Poly self, 10 attacks per round. Spin gives those attacks max damage, bit lacking on the higher end arcane spells. But due to quick levels his level based spells are really good. Skull Trap and Remove Magic are both very strong.
Theif/Mage Multi
- Can we say assassination with 10 attacks per round with any weapon that allows backstab? Pretty overpowered damage against anything you can backstab. Traps are also pretty useful. Slower arcane spell progression so preference is generally twards spells like breach, etc.
Wild Mage
- NRD for Chain Contingency is pretty OP, basically blasting out 3 spells per turn and NRD bypasses the normal casting speed which frees up Robe of Vecna for another user.
There are a few others such as fighter/cleric, but they come no where near 10 attacks per round. Or the offensive output of the classes above.
What other classes have you all seen that has this type of power output?
Dual Figher/Mage (pref berserker)
- With Polymorph self sword spider this guy does 10 attacks per round with any weapon. Still gets access to high lvl mages spells, huge HP (300+ with Tensers). Berserker rage gives nice immunities. All in all a pretty strong class.
Blade
- Again Poly self, 10 attacks per round. Spin gives those attacks max damage, bit lacking on the higher end arcane spells. But due to quick levels his level based spells are really good. Skull Trap and Remove Magic are both very strong.
Theif/Mage Multi
- Can we say assassination with 10 attacks per round with any weapon that allows backstab? Pretty overpowered damage against anything you can backstab. Traps are also pretty useful. Slower arcane spell progression so preference is generally twards spells like breach, etc.
Wild Mage
- NRD for Chain Contingency is pretty OP, basically blasting out 3 spells per turn and NRD bypasses the normal casting speed which frees up Robe of Vecna for another user.
There are a few others such as fighter/cleric, but they come no where near 10 attacks per round. Or the offensive output of the classes above.
What other classes have you all seen that has this type of power output?
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Comments
I agree completely with your first character. Having tried all kinds of combinations, nothing beats a pure Wizard with Warrior capabilities (as I like to call dual-class Fighter/Mage). Not even the Fighter/Illusionist whose multi-class slows down your spell progression noticeably.
Need THAC0? You have Grandmastery and Kit (Berserker/Kensaï) ability.
Warriors High Level Abilities? Cast a spell instead!
I favor Berserkers over Kensaïs too. First, because you want to dual-class fast (level 9 is best) which means no meaningful gains for Kensaïs. Second, because you should not give up the ability to wear Helmets and Gauntlets. And really, just let this level 13 1/2 attack go. It's not worth the Experience needed.
Rogues in all forms, I agree too. Mislead Bards singing or a Mislead Thief for unending backstabs (you don't want to rely on Assassination) are very powerful. They don't always work (just check the range of True Sight) but when they do, it's 'good game'. Traps of course are also game enders. And Bards only lose to Inquisitors as best dispellers. Too bad they've so limited options and are lousy fighters (more so with the Offensive Spin fix).
Wild Mages, I'm not convinced. I explained why in another of your discussions.
You get Chain Contingency too late in the game. At that point, any other Wizard could use it. So you can't just say Nahal's Reckless Dweomer + Chain Contingency is a viable strategy.
Priests are inferior to Wizards in everything but group buffing. I've taken Clerics for granted for a long time. But then, I just realized they're not effective enough. Let's not even mention Druids. Priests have a few unique and interesting spells. But, really that doesn't justify a party slot. Unless you're playing Icewind Dale.
Finally, I don't get your Sword Spider trick. When you Polymorph, it creates a Magical Weapon that overrides all your current weapons.
I think you've pretty spotted the most effective builds. If it were me, I'd mostly pick Wizards. In all forms. I've given a good try to Sorcerers too (avoid Dragon Disciples) and I've been impressed. But then they cannot take a hit. So, if you're lazy in your management they may prove a liability rather than an asset.
For constant effectiveness and very soon in the game, try the Dwarven Defender. I think it's a most underestimated class. But if you pick the right equipment it may prove quite impossible to kill. Check my own thread if you're intrigued.
You didn't mention Monks either but they quickly become deadly with their natural Magic Resistance. You could practically send one to kill Beholders by himself. Add in Gargoyle Boots and they're monsters! Quivering Palms alone should deserve a strategy. It's save or die at level 13!
And that's my conclusion: to me Wizards are the best, but also the worst in that they need constant spell casting. I shall try AI Party scripts one of these days...
My two favorites are:
(1) Inquisitor - This is probably the most consistently powerful class in the game. It has no development time (unlike monks/wizards) and no down time (unlike dual-classes). It trivializes BG1 because you can farm sirenes risk-free with just Imoen at level 1. In BG2 many of the trickier battles (i.e. battles with mages/liches) become very easy provided you know how to properly aim your dispel magic.
(2) Kensai 13/Thief X - This build has idiotic damage output (assassination + improved haste). It's also very flavorful and very fitting for one of the children of Murder. The only downside I see is the extended period of downtime when leveling thief to 14.
Honestly, I think there are many classes in the game that are quite good, albeit in different ways. Let me also mention Druids as they are a really solid choice that rarely gets praise. They are very powerful - particularly during the midgame. They have a unusual leveling scheme (having to do with their ascension through the druidic hierarchy) that allows them access to level 6 spells very early (consider how quickly Jaheria gets level 6 spells as a multi-class). This is great because Conjure Fire Elemental is an elite summon in early-mid BG2.
Inquisitors are nice, but dispel magic is not nearly as strong as remove magic. As a fighter Paladins aren't bad but not really anything to write home about.
Sorcerer is a good pick. I do like the option to choose spell on casting, which is nice. But compared to a wild mage they are lacking. NRD used for chain contingency does not surge. Sorcerers are really OP when it comes to mirror images because it lets them spam other lvl 7 spells. But TBH the ones you focus on generally aren't lvl 7 anyways.
All in all WM>Sorcerer
It's not really an issue now, but there's plenty of spell scrolls that once didn't seem to have copies at all (Mordenkainen's Sword was one) for a lot of patches.
- Wild Mages
- Sorcerers
- Fighter/Mages of all shapes and sizes
- Regular Specialist Mages
- Cleric/Rangers or Fighter/Clerics (maybe)
- Fighter/Thieves (really pushing it now - better to go with an F/M/T)
I think that's where the list stands. But perhaps someone can add something. I was surprised last time, after all.
be it melissan, irenicus, kangaxx or any other boss. So there are strong options. If you know the game well
It's a shame there is no way to mind control gated demons. That would be fun.
1) Berserker 13 dual to Mage, grandmastery to quarterstaffs. Mean Beast. You don't loose any item slot, you can equip anything you fancy, plus you get berserker's rage... What more to ask for?
2) Beastmaster 12 dual to Cleric (the weapons' restriction is not bad, staff is the strongest weapon in ToB anyway, the sling forged at cespenar's rocks hard, and you can always equip good club with good shield if you need more defense; also is able to wear black and white dragon scales, 2 endgame items equal to unique full plate mail ones stats-wise)
3) Kensai 13 dual to Thief, Katana and Scimitar Grandmastery, dual wield 3 points (those blades are the highest damaging weapons a thief can hope to wield, at least from a backstabbingable point).
4) Berserker 13 dual to Cleric, grandmastery to warhammers and flails, dual wield, sword and shield, single weapon styles maxed. Berserker 13 dual to Druid, grandmastery to either Dagger and Club/Scimitar dual wield, or spear and quarterstaff 2H weapon style. For me, divine casters are almost equal, that's why i consider them to be in the same category.
5) Swashbucker 15 dual to Mage. Difficult to play, long to regain inactive class, you loose on backstab. But you actually get a Fighter Mage Thief hybrid by just it having two classes, thief and mage. Dual wield, and specialization in katanas and scimitars is good. Plus it gets enough points for all thieving skills to have decent and above average success rate.
6) Wild mage. Chain contigency 3x Greater Chaos Shield, and you eliminate wild surges. NRD your casting even to spells of such a high level, that you still don't have slots to memorize yet! NRD your way to limited wish, to restore your spells, recycling NRG itself thusly and keep casting indefinately! Nothing can go wrong at all with this wonderful little charm of a caster!
7) Finally, a personal favorite. It is not that much overpowered, but still tricky. Avenger. The little fella can shapeshift into sword spider or baby wyvern, despite the fact he is NOT a shapeshifter. Also, he can use some mage spells. And has angry combos (ex Doom + Chromatic Orb). Finally, he is able to wear Ankheg Plate and some Dragon Scale armors, even if kit restrictions are heavy and demanding.
Honestly I'm pretty unimpressed with Mage nuke damage. Even horrid wilting x3 only tends to do 20 damage each in most cases. And that's after 3x lower resist.
So I'm leaning towards just using pure Mages as buffers and dispellers. With the added perks of debuffs and insta killing summons.
I'm starting to think this is why sorcerers are popular. You learn all the buffs, Dispels and useful debuffs then keep just 1 damage spell per spell lvl. When the time comes you time stop and imp alcary and empty all the damage spells.
On a side note after some testing Luck is one badass little spell adding +1 to all rolls. Works great for damage spells. Almost a 30% damage increase for all d6 roll based spells.
Hm has anyone tried a wild Mage dualed to a cleric? That could be interesting. You lose out on timestop but gain a ton of divine spell casting. Implosion is pretty good damage and there would be plenty of hy smite to throw around.
(1 APR base + 1 offhand + 2 dual speed weapons + 1/2 gauntlets of extra spec) x2 Improved Haste = 9 APR max using dual speed weapons.
Fighter/Thief - Can reach 10 APR, assassinate, critical strike, use any item, 20d6 spike traps, time stop trap. While attacking 10 times with a spider might work, 10 times with auto-crit and 23 strength is better.
Fighter/Mage - Similar to above but replace backstabs and traps with time stop and powerful spells.
Sorcerer - They are ridiculously powerful normally, but there is a contingency/project image glitch which seems like your cup of overkill.
Fighter mages (i prefer multi myself) are godly (stronger than FMT but less versatile)
Most powerful IMO is the sorceror by far.
Everything about them is so cheesy.
Project image, time stop, improve alacrity, kill every thing on the screen while using a level single 7 spell (the contigzncy stuff is completely overkill)
Wild mages are nice but wild surges are a no go for any serious game (serious = no reload)
My vote always goes for F/M/T, so versatile, so powerful when you micromanage it correctly.
Others very strong and underestimated classes are Dwarfen Defender as said earlier and Blackguard, the first can become immune to most melee damage while the second has some obscene damages with Poison Weapon (add at least 12 damage per hit without save, bypass Stoneskin, Mirror Image, etc).
Just my 2 cents.
Where mages really shine is debuffing. Too many players neglect to consider that in most fights held = dead, and panicked or confused is not far off. This is why web is such a powerful spell, and there's really no need to waste a 7th level spell slot on finger of death once you realize it's basically just a glorified hold monster. There are lots of other great debuffs as well, and especially if you can combine them with greater malison and spell sequencers and have multiple mages acting in unison, you can effectively neutralize most of the enemies in the game and kill them at your leisure. If you can get charm spells to work (which you do with multiple, concerted castings of them, not by trotting one out occasionally to watch it fail) you can make your enemies kill each other.
There are many other crazy things mages can do as well. Simulacrum is ridiculous for obvious reasons. Even without cheese, Project Image can often allow you to fight from a position of complete safety. The power of self-buffs is such that by the late game, a fully buffed mage will be able to beat any fighter in melee in spite of his GWW's and whatnot. (I tried this. In ToB my conjurer could easily tank Minsc, even with only a few rounds of buffing.) Even by the mid-levels, Stoneskin and mirror image are insane, Tenser's transformation can make your mage almost a fighter when necessary, and the value of having all or most of your party covered by personal spell protections like minor globe or spell turning cannot be overstated. Melf's minute meteors should not be discounted either. A mage with Time Stop and Shapechange can turn into a mind flayer and kill most enemies by intelligence drain. Level drain is also a good tactic against many powerful monsters in ToB.
Basically mages work best in teams. People who only use one or two of them tend to think they are for dispelling and buffing, but they just aren't making the best use of them. If you want an individual character that can maximize his own damage output, I think it's probably some kind of F/M (although I don't know the Wild Mage cheese - I never played one.) A dual-class F/M is more or less a mage with extra APRs. Of the multiclasses, F/M has the highest level spells while still getting a fighter's APR so there's definitely an argument in its favor, but F/M/T has basically all the benefits of a M/T and a F/T so I don't see a reason to play one of the latter two. F/M/T's can also use scrolls, enabling them to cast a few high level spells when it really matters. F/M/C's are often neglected but should not be. The opportunity to put cleric spells in sequencers and contingencies is very valuable for everything from lowering saving throws via doom to getting your strength to 25 while you are polymorphed/shapechanged. Even seemingly innocuous things like a contingencied free action can enable you to haste yourself and then still gain the benefits of free action even when you can't pre-buff, which can save your life. Or in the very beginning, a minor spell sequencer with bless-chant bypasses the long casting times that would otherwise prevent you from using those spells, although it's also in competition with 2x doom, 2x hold person, and mirror image-DUHM. Later on, when many enemies are immune to backstab, the combination of fighter HLA's, mage buffs, and cleric buffs makes F/M/C's the best fighters in the game. Although I still prefer straight mages for all the above reasons.
I'll say a word about wild mages, even though I might not be qualified. There is always a small chance of catastrophe when you are using them. I strongly suspect that people who use them are abusing the re-load option in order to negate their huge disadvantage - not that they re-load often, but they are willing to re-load if need be. After all, it's only a small chance of disaster, so it's easy to ignore until it happens, and then to re-load and shrug it off when it does. I wouldn't touch them.
That leaves sorcerers. If you solo, there is absolutely no question sorcerers are where it's at. With a full party, they get more spells per day than mages, but I think the cost is quite considerable: you practically have to plan out all the tactics you will ever use before the game even starts, and there's no opportunity to try new things. If you know exactly what you are doing and make the right choices, this can probably work just fine for you. As for me though, I would hardly care to play the game if I never expected to have an *idea* in the course of my playthrough. Now, maybe if you loaded up your sorcerer with spells you were sure you would always need, and took three other mages who could change things up, it could, and in fact probably would, work. Still, I don't like to have my hands tied so there's nothing I'd really prefer to a human conjurer or gnome illusionist, until someone can show me I'm wrong.
I think your last post points out exactly why sorcerers do shine. It's more so the use any spell whenever ability that makes them very good. 6 casts per level in any combination vs memorized.
That in conjunction with mirror image is what makes the sorc good. If you only take a few damage spells, magic missile, skull trap, sunfire, delayed fireball, horrid wilt. You can focus the rest on debuffs and protections. Which we all know what the best ones are. Stoneskin, PfMW, TrueSight, Chaos, web, etc.
Then you can can focus on your dispells and debuffs the majority of the time and use the Image as the fight opener and nuker of destruction.
On a side note I've tried the chain contingency with project image and have never been able to get more than 2 images. Shortly after I produced two i was unable to even get more than 1 very often so i think that cheese has been fixed.
Oh yes tried to dual a WM to a cleric, turns out it's not possible.
If F/M/C are neglected (which I'm not sure of) I'd say it's for good reasons. Yes, you can put Clerics spells into Sequencers. But what spells? Bless for 6 rounds? Chant for impressive +1 rolls? Doom that you CAN'T stack? I'd rather put two Web spells into a Minor Sequencer.
Any higher level spell would require a Sequencer, which is a level 7 spell. We're talking 4.5M XP for the F/M/C. Just for comparison sake, a Sorcerer 'only' needs 3M XP to be able to cast 6 level 9 spells per day.
It seems you're assuming a lot regarding XP and class progression. Just start a new multiplayer game with a F/M/C and a F>M to compare with in a party. I can tell you it's not fun to be stuck at medium spell levels in ToB while other characters reached full power in SoA.
I would not even trade a pure Wizard for a C/M. Why would one need so many spells? How many fights actually require more than a few spells? You only end up with more lesser spells to choose from instead of having a few effective ones. Reaching maximum spell power and spell level as fast as possible should be one's aim.
Which is why I would not discard Sorcerers either. I've looked at and used spells over and over and while there are many only a few are really useful. But you're right, you need to be able to tell. Sorcerers are clearly not for beginners and even knowledgeable players can make mistakes.
Also, don't forget Sorcerers don't have to memorize. That makes for an incredible amount of combinations (number of spells slots x number of spells learned). Quite a strategic advantage in my opinion!
F/M/T are a special case since their versatility is unparalleled and makes for the progression penalty.
That works quite well early on, and remember that chant also penalizes your enemies. It starts to lose its utility by mid-SoA. Web-web I like very much too, and I use it a lot, but I'm used to the map being covered in webs anyhow. No, me neither, although I like having one around and I'd definitely take them in preference to a pure cleric. I do remember doing some awesome things with Aerie's sequencers, but I also remember that by the end of ToB, she couldn't cast 9th level spells. She was still extremely effective throughout the game.
On reconsideration you're probably right that I'm assuming a little too much about the F/M/C's progression rate. I'm playing one now so I guess I'll see how it goes.
There's obviously a very good argument for sorcerers, and I never said otherwise. They are nevertheless not to my taste, because you just can't try new tactics. I'd have to do a lot more analysis to make a serious evaluation of the mage vs. sorcerer question, but it seems like a nitpicking distinction, frankly.
C/M is cool in theory but doesn't progress very well. They do make fun summoning machines though. But there is a wand with 50 charges you get way too easily to make it worth it. Timestop + harm is good but takes soo damn long to get.
With haste they really become bruisers.
i play an FMT with heavy resting restrictions (like no rest in dungeon). Even then, it's very easy.
I did the whole asylum without resting (nor reloading) at 1.5Mxp (i skipped the lich though).
I basically play it as a FT (already godly) with mage spells only for difficult fights.
The monk is also quite good : being able to reach 100% MR quite easily is really powerful.
An F/M/T only hits 12/12/14 by 3 million XP (end of SoA-ish, and original level cap), meaning you've not even got your final 1/2 APR yet.
Compared to an F/M they lose out on higher spell levels (they never go past 7 spells). Their HP is lower than a F/T. They end up several Fighter levels behind an F/M or F/T which means worse THAC0.
While versatile they will be overshadowed in anything but a small party. I'd say that a F/M or F/T or a dual with a similar amount of XP is likely to be more of an asset.
And the synergy between all the classes is really huge.
Fighter is good, but you can enhance it with backstab and traps.
Fighter / Thief is good, but being immune to nearly everything while having Improved haste running and being able to cast invisibility type spells mid-fight for more backstab is better.
A Mage is good, but it kinda lacks damage, you can enhance it with a Fighter/Mage.
A Fighter/Mage is good, but having Spike Traps, Time Traps, Backstab for 200 damage and being able to Detect illusion, detect traps, picklock etc is really cool.
But with 8m, you fight as well as any single class fighter and have more thieving skills that you would ever need.
The only thing you lack are level 9 spells.
Those saying that F/M/T is amazing are assuming solo play, those saying they are bad are assuming party play, so there is no real disagreement.
F/M/T is probably the most powerful single character, or at least the most versatile, for solo'ing. But even F/M levels frustratingly slowly in a party, let alone a F/M/T.
I mean my favourite character in BG 2 was Aerie, but it wasn't for her powergaming potential as a C/M. Her progression was frustratingly slow for somebody like me who doesn't cheese xp, or even do all quests.
I never got to cast lv9 spells with her or my F/M Charname since they only hit 6M xp during the final battle vs Melissan, which was disappointing to say the least.