*spoiler* Dorn abilities?

zavulon

If Dorn becomes a fallen blackguard, does he lose his level drain immunity?

Heindrich

@CrevsDaak, correct me if I am wrong, but surely a Blackguard cannot fall? He is evil, so low reputation shouldn't be problem... or does a Blackguard 'fall' when your reputation becomes too high? But then surely Dorn leaves the party anyway?

CrevsDaak

Yes, he can become fallen Blackguard

if you kill both patrons in his SoA quest.

Player Blackguards can't become Fallen Blackguards.

CrevsDaak

He will lose all his abilities, I don't know for sure about the immunities but they should be gone too.

LiamEsler

@zavulon Yes. He loses all blackguard abilities, and basically becomes a regular fighter.

WebShaman

And it is totally bogus! He should get "rewarded" for his power! Such feat(s) should naturally attract the attention of a Demonlord!

Remember, Dorn is still evil, still powerful! Imagine what Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt or Pazuzu could grant him...and would demand in return!

Wouldn't it be utterly cool at the bottom of Watcher's Keep, to get a totally BGII:EE unique option, of having Dorn swear allegiance to Demogorgon!!!!!!

Now THAT would be coolness!

I thought this is what happens anyway, with high level Blackguards...

Beamdog, you disappoint me.

shawne

@WebShaman: If Dorn went to all the trouble of ditching two potential masters just for the sake of his own freedom, why on earth would he enter into another pact with someone like Demogorgon?

WebShaman

Heh.

Power, of course. What else?

shawne

But at that point, Dorn has either chosen a patron (Azothet or Ur-Gothoz, depending on what you choose at the Gorge) or forfeited power altogether for freedom (what happens if you take them both out). Either way, he has no reason to chain himself to someone like Demogorgon, who'd probably be an even more capricious and unreliable master than Ur-Gothoz - demons aren't known for being careful with their toys.

Lesse

I'd guess Dorn "rises", sort of like a loaf of bread or some sort of muffin.

WebShaman

The more powerful your Patron, the more powerful the Blackguard.

Who would want to settle for a minor player like Ur-Gothoz, or Azothet, when one could get a major player like Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, or Pazuzu?

Of course, attracting their attention is not easy (unlike those of minor power). So a Blackguard poweful enough to defeat their minor Patron...well, that could be an interesting new toy for a major player, couldn't it?

For a Demonlord?

As for capricious and unreliable...well, we are talking about demons here. What do you expect? If you want something else, get the attention of a powerful Devil, like Asmodeus & Co. Bring your team of lawyers along, however, to mash out the fine points of the contract.

"And on Feastday, I can't do any killings. My goldfish has it's birthday..."

jackjack

Lesse said:

I'd guess Dorn "rises", sort of like a loaf of bread or some sort of muffin.

Or a river in the rain.

shawne

WebShaman said:

The more powerful your Patron, the more powerful the Blackguard.

Who would want to settle for a minor player like Ur-Gothoz, or Azothet, when one could get a major player like Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, or Pazuzu?

Because the story doesn't work that way. Unless you're really playing out of sequence, Dorn's quest will probably trigger long before you can reach the bottom level of Watcher's Keep. And at the end of that quest, Dorn has three options: dump Ur-Gothoz for Azothet, betray Azothet for Ur-Gothoz, or bind both and forfeit both his powers and his enslavement.

Any of these three scenarios precludes Dorn from even considering Demogorgon as an option: if he already has a patron, he's not up for grabs (and if it's Azothet, there's that pesky Blood War thing to consider - demons and devils are more likely to kill the other's agents than try to convert them); if he willingly and knowingly cut his own strings, he's not going to give that freedom up again.

WebShaman

Well, he could get a nice little visit from the two-headed guy there in that rift, right? Or perhaps some clue...a dream fragment, or something.

"Find me, Blackguard! And taste REAL POWER!!!"

I mean...c'mon! It is D&D! We can do just about anything our imaginations can think up, right?

Besides, you all know you want Moar Cowbell! Muhahahahaha!

And if you don't...then you shouldn't be getting a better Patron anyway!

jackjack

I think what @shawne is saying, (and if so, I agree with him), is that such a maneuver would not be in any way organic to Dorn's storyline. Correct me if I'm wrong.

WebShaman

??

And why not? One does have the option to exchange Ur-Gothoz for Azothet, right? So think bigger...

jackjack

But having given up that option, what in whoever's name could then compel him to pull a 180, once again willfully give up his freedom, and go back on what has become his ethos, namely, personal freedom? My point is simply that, if when given the choice of A) keeping his current patron, trading Ur-Gothoz for Azothet, or C) ridding himself of the entire debacle, he chooses C, why on Abeir-Toril would he then willfully submit himself to a new patron? It just doesn't track, in my opinion, and would fully transform him into a non-sensical, OP-for-the-sake-of-being OP character. I mean, c'mon, the guy is shallow enough as it stands.

shawne

Exactly, @jackjack. And if he chooses to stick with Ur-Gothoz or Azothet, he can't accept any other offer even if he wants to - and that's in the unlikely event Demogorgon would even be interested in making such an offer. The more powerful figures like Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Demogorgon and Orcus don't need to concern themselves with one half-orc blackguard when they already have cults and avatars and multitudes of servants already; it's the little guys like Ur-Gothoz or Azothet who hope to use their agents to further their own agendas.

Rylorn23

What can I say about Dorn? The only good Dorn is dead Dorn. I don't think it's a good idea to drag with me an half-orc blackguard who serves a demon, while my human LE blackguard serves a devil. Those who serve Archdevil should not ally with a thralls of demon lord. There is a war between devils from Baator and demons from abyss. So if my PC Blackguard meets with Dorn, shouldn't they both fight each other because their patron demand it? If so, then it will happen like in these screenshots.

As my Blackguard says to Dorn: We have some problems.

WebShaman

shawne said:

Exactly, @jackjack. And if he chooses to stick with Ur-Gothoz or Azothet, he can't accept any other offer even if he wants to - and that's in the unlikely event Demogorgon would even be interested in making such an offer. The more powerful figures like Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Demogorgon and Orcus don't need to concern themselves with one half-orc blackguard when they already have cults and avatars and multitudes of servants already; it's the little guys like Ur-Gothoz or Azothet who hope to use their agents to further their own agendas.

Ah, but all those silly servants are not travelling around with a Bhaalspawn that will eventually get to decide if it becomes a God, do they?

That alone is reason enough for Demon Lords and Archdevils to get interested in Dorn. Through him, they have indirect influence over this particular Bhaalspawn.

shawne

Nope. Because you actually come face to face with Demogorgon, and he doesn't know or doesn't care who you are - if the demon lords and archdevils are rooting for a particular Bhaalspawn, it's probably not you.

jackjack

True - the only way something like that could even work is for Dorn to betray you at that very moment he sides with his new patron. At which point I'd wager anyone who'd been clamoring for him to keep his powers would probably, suddenly cry out for a nerf. But now I'm just speculating.

Kamigoroshi

I'm still visioneering Dorn to make a pact with Juiblex and then becoming very, very slimy indeed. Also, since the wretched Faceless Lord is the most whimsical of all demon lords in existence, it wouldn't be a far fetched plot twist either. More importantly the addition of one or two tentacles on Dorn's body would clearly add to his charm as well.

WebShaman

shawne said:

Nope. Because you actually come face to face with Demogorgon, and he doesn't know or doesn't care who you are - if the demon lords and archdevils are rooting for a particular Bhaalspawn, it's probably not you.

That is how the Devs wrote it - but they are not infallible. I personally find it totally laughable that a God breaks itself up into parts, spreads these parts across the Prime, and not one Demon Lord interests itself in these powerful little tidbits...

You would expect every Bhaalspawn to be hunted from just about every Outer Plane horror that exists. If Irenicus can do it, there are other powers who can do it much better.

shawne

WebShaman said:

That is how the Devs wrote it - but they are not infallible. I personally find it totally laughable that a God breaks itself up into parts, spreads these parts across the Prime, and not one Demon Lord interests itself in these powerful little tidbits...

You would expect every Bhaalspawn to be hunted from just about every Outer Plane horror that exists. If Irenicus can do it, there are other powers who can do it much better.

Cyric is forbidden from interfering in the Bhaalspawn crisis by the decree of Ao - presumably that holds true for any extraplanar power. Ur-Gothoz gets a pass because his agent just "happens" to be traveling with a Bhaalspawn; you'll recall that at no point does he (or Azothet, for that matter) specifically command Dorn to accompany you.

Kamigoroshi

shawne said:

Cyric is forbidden from interfering in the Bhaalspawn crisis by the decree of Ao - presumably that holds true for any extraplanar power. Ur-Gothoz gets a pass because his agent just "happens" to be traveling with a Bhaalspawn; you'll recall that at no point does he (or Azothet, for that matter) specifically command Dorn to accompany you.

Ao has indeed power over all deities, as well as aspects of deities, which are directly connected to Abeir-Toril. But that's it: his power of influence ends there. Meaning while Ao could theoretically command Orcus (who archieved godhood at some point) and Juiblex (who's an aspect of Ghaunadaur), he wouldn't have any influence over "lesser" extraplanar powers. This of course also includes archdevils, demon lords and pretty much any other non-deities within the Great Wheel. One could also argue that extra-planar deities, which have nothing to do with Abeir-Toril, aren't amongst his subjects either.

WebShaman

Oh come on!

Demon Lords and Archdevils, as well as the other Outer Planar powers, have a multitude of helpers! It has already been mentioned - cults, etc.

Case in point : the Solar that "advises" Charname at the end of ToB.

Well, whatever. If others wish to pull the sheets over their eyes, more power to them. I'm done here.

mjs

WebShaman said:

Heh.

Power, of course. What else?

freedom is power

mjs

LiamEsler said:

@zavulon Yes. He loses all blackguard abilities, and basically becomes a regular fighter.

with only specialisation in weapon proficiencies! i had him fall for RP reasons, but really would've liked it had he have been able to hit GM in weapons

Skaffen

You can always keeper GM in - you're playing to have fun and if you feel he should get it then you're the boss.

jackjack

Falling is not supposed to give you new abilities.