Yes she's being treated the way witches were treated in Salem, but not because she's a priestess of Shar. She's being treated that way because she's a Drow. Listen to the actual dialogue. Viconia tells you that some townsman noticed her face under her hood. She doesn't say "they saw me spellcasting."
In Salem, no one actually saw Alice Cooper and the others "Spellcasting".
As I said, in Faerun, the standard response to Drow is to shove a sword through their chests or to shoot them with arrows. Given that they are attempting to burn her at the stake, and that takes a good deal more effort than the other solution, the only logical reasoning is that they think the extra effort is necessary. And given the symbolism, it's pretty clear that they think she's a Witch. Plus, she's screaming at the top of her lungs for Shar to protect her so....
To be clear, there is no "Correct" answer to this question as it is metaphysical in nature. No amount of "But the rules say this" or "The books say that" is "The correct definitive answer" because (a) in the game world, as in reality, there are as many 'Right' ways of thinking as there are snow crystals in a Snow Storm. and (b) the game world itself is as shifting and nebulous as grains of sand in a sand storm and (c) it's about motivations and metaphysics, not about rules.
There is no metaphysics. The only way to become a god in FR is to be approved by Ao. That's the way it is. If your wizard thinks about bending that rule, it's about same as if you fantasized about becoming the Emperor of the Earth. Just because no one ever did it before, it's not impossible. It's just that, fantasizing. Good luck with it.
Also, your wizard could use some lore reading. Being a god in FR is much more about responsibility than power. When gods neglected their responsibilities, the Time of Troubles came. And the whole Baldur's Gate thing happened. In fact, a god is a squirrel in a wheel. There is a portfolio to be followed, there are followers to take care of, there are greater gods to serve to, there are lesser gods to support, there are enemy gods to oppose. And the battle will never be over, because it's all about balance. ToB ascension ending pretty much describes it.
In Salem, no one actually saw Alice Cooper and the others "Spellcasting".
As I said, in Faerun, the standard response to Drow is to shove a sword through their chests or to shoot them with arrows. Given that they are attempting to burn her at the stake, and that takes a good deal more effort than the other solution, the only logical reasoning is that they think the extra effort is necessary. And given the symbolism, it's pretty clear that they think she's a Witch. Plus, she's screaming at the top of her lungs for Shar to protect her so....
You have no concept of arcane vs divine at all. You blend priestly power with wizardly power, and they are completely separate. Nobody in Faerun would confuse the two. A common theme among your posts is imposing the viewpoints of Earth to Faerun, and not looking at Faerun through the eyes of a Faerunian. You cannot discuss the motives of the commoners of Faerun without a background in Faerunian lore. "Witch" is a term used to refer to Dynaheir, not Viconia. There is a reason for that, one that you are unable to grasp, mostly because you pay no attention to Faerunian lore.
And by the way, in Salem, there were typically "witnesses" that would come forward, usually due to either external pressures or due to personal rivalries, and those "witnesses" would claim and profess to having seen the witch on trial do all manner of spellcasting. What do you think made up the Salem Witch Trials? witnesses.
And the standard response to drow is usually sword and arrow because they're in battle. It is not typically "standard" to catch one alive. In the unlikely event that it actually does happen, who are we to speculate as to what is normally done? There is not enough precedent to draw a conclusion that it is or is not typical. Judging by Viconia's experience, I'd say that it is.
If we're talking about the nature of magic in the Forgotten Realms lore and rules, that link explains it pretty clearly. It says pretty authoritatively that divine and arcane magic are two different animals, *in the game*.
I think @the_spyder wasn't really wanting to discuss the rules, though. I think he wanted to have an interesting discussion about possibly drawing an analogy between mages and clerics in the FR world, and scientists and pastors/priests in our world.
That's not really new thinking. I've thought for a long time that if magic were real in our world, the formulae of chemistry and physics, and the schematics of engineers and technicians, as well as the programming syntax of our computer experts, would certainly represent it.
Think about it a bit - just look carefully at some chemical formula, physics equation, schematic, or written computer program that you are not trained to understand. To me, it looks exactly like drawings of arcane spells and mystical powers. The only difference is that those are real, and the arcane writings in fantasy art are made up.
(Although, it's an interesting aside to talk about how the artists invoke "magic" in a drawing of an arcane text or a set of glyphs. I've noticed that they often resort to using Greek lettering, or ancient pictographs such as those from Egypt or Babylon, or astrological glyphs. I even find that looking at Japanese or Chinese lettering invokes a sense of the mysterious to me, while that would look totally mundane to someone who actually speaks those languages. Our posts in English could look arcane to someone who'd never studied our alphabet and phonics. It's no accident that we use the word "spell" in English to mean both "correct ordering of letters to form written words", and "an arcane incantation.")
I'm surprised at how heated some of these posts are. I don't really understand that. Is the hostility toward "thinking outside the box" of Forgotten Realms rules, inspired by them creatively toward philosophical thought, but not actually playing a game and bound by them, coming from what we might call "rules lawyers"? That's actually not something that's considered good to be among most D&D players.
As far as in-game mages aspiring to be gods, that's not far-fetched at all within the context of the Baldur's Gate games. Irenicus thought he could do it, and he would have if Charname hadn't stopped him. And any player character mage can rather obviously become a god, because of the Bhaalspawn thing.
@BelgarathMTH - thank you very much for that wonderful post. Yes, truly and exactly, the original intent had nothing what so ever to do with the rules, but was an attempt to incite a discussion among intellectuals about the possibilities of the mind, using BG and Faerun as a backdrop and nothing more. I think that there are volumes of rich material that could be explored surrounding the characters, realm and the imaginations of the forum members which could enhance such a discussion to a great deal.
I like your thinking in that many scientific methodologies and programming even lend themselves to how magic is portrayed in a fantasy setting like The Forgotten realms. It's true, or at least I consider it so. I'd go so far as to say that was the intent, at least to some degree. And considering the types of people who play the game, and who write it, not to mention the mechanical nature of the game itself, that makes a good deal of sense to me.
I also think there is an element of art to the whole thing. After all, there is huge mysticism and magestry associated with the subject matter. Grand schemes, Phantoms and Emperors, dragon hoards and wondrous magic. Quite poetic in my mind.
As I stated in my original post, my wizard (which I invariably play) always ends up thinking that he is unique and destined to rule over the gods themselves. As he grows in power as the game progresses, he eventually approaches Godhood. And as he learns more magic, he elevates himself in his own mind. I draw a direct correlation between the two when playing the character. I'd have a real hard time seeing him worshiping anyone other than himself. He also has a distinct disdain for what he thinks of as a weakness in the Divine magic realms. Yet still he is drawn to Viconia like a moth to a flame.
I had originally wondered, long before this became a hatchet job, if others saw the poetry in this way of thinking the way I do. I'm gratified that someone at least got the topic and understood the intent.
You said it's about motivations and metaphysics, not about rules.
Does a scientist wonder why an apple falls to the ground from a tree? No, because someone before him already figured out gravity. So goes a mage. He does not try to achieve godhood through magic because he understands that he'd need to perform a 12th level spell in order to do that, and he cannot because the Weave will not allow it. He knows someone before him tried already. And his name was Karsus. It's in the books, which you don't find important at all and don't want to talk about.
Well, depending on a scientist he could want to figure out more about why the apple falls from the tree than just the pull of differently sized objects. What triggers the moving force, what if we were able to change the mass somehow, how could we negate the pull? These are just some examples, and I bet they are already figured out by someone else (I am not good at physics). My point is that it is a scientist's job to be curious and challenge established theories or dismiss/enchance them through research. Consequently, I would think certain mages and others could be interested in changing (or at least broadening our understanding) the way the pantheon/godhood works. I totally accept that you are citing rules or even established facts and that this is purely speculative - I am sorry if I am assuming your position wrongly here, but to you it might seem as if we are challenging whether 1+1 does in fact equal 2 - but it is fun anyway. I like challenging or specualting established facts - and I have enjoyed the_spyder's speculations alot.
Anyway, as I like to see the fanatsy setting mages are indeed somewhat closer to scientists than some other proffesions, even if that is just a way for me to catalogue in a very rough way the different mindsets that might be prevalent in the FR. I guess many rangers are just as interested in deeper questions which might be akin to scientific research in the real world (due to interest in the natural world) - not just a tree-logger equivalent. However, I often think that the best mages are driven either by ambition or curiosity (or both) - and that these drives would indeed lead some mages to challenge, or at least think about challenging the gods. Many might dismiss the notion early on, some might try and fail spectacularly, but I also think that many mages might be disinterested in powers through the gods, and be more interested in power through themselves.
Look guys, I'm an attorney okay? I love playing devil's advocate and to me this entire debate with thespyder was alot of fun. I love to argue, even forcefully argue, but if you ever sensed hostility from me, that was not the intent.
And hey, I love speculation. I get your point. you don't want to talk about the rules. Fine. But what you do want to do is speculate about the thoughts, desires, aspirations, and motivations of the characters of the game.
Well those characters live in the world of the Forgotten Realms. That's a fact. And how in the world can you speculate about them without knowing the world within which they live?
The world they live in has a weave. It has a pantheon of gods. It has a history. So answer me now, how can you draw any conclusions with any accuracy about their motives or desires without considering those things?
You may think it comes off as me being a "rule" stickler, but all I was trying to do was accurately answer the question posed, which required postulating about a mage's desires and motives, which required taking into account the world they live in, which required knowing, for lack of a better word, the rules that govern said world.
But hey, agree to disagree. Apparently my position and the arguments that support it (persuasive ones in my opinion btw) are offensive to some. So I shall let it end at this.
And for the record, no. My mage player character never wanted to be a god. After defeating Saravok he wanted to find a secluded region of land, conquer Viconia's heart, and start a new Drow enclave where Shar, and not Lloth, held sway, and live his natural life without the constant fighting or the demands of godhood.
@ZaknafeinBaenre, thanks for softening up on us philosophers, at least a little.
I think the disconnect has to do with the fact that we philosophers are trying to use Forgotten Realms games and lore in order to draw insights that expand our minds in real life.
I don't think your arguments are "offensive" at all, I just think that in some posts, you seem to be missing the point of what we philosophers enjoy. We like to analyze and dissect everything from all fields of endeavor, including science, architecture, art, music, history, linguistics, literature, and yes, even the entire cultural phenomenon of Dungeons and Dragons in all incarnations, and then attempt to put it all back together into some new insight that gives us an increased awareness of *the human mind*. The *human mind* really turns us on, especially our own, individual minds, and it's almost as good as sex to us if we can connect with another philosophical human mind and feel like we're gaining new insights *together*.
I'd have to read back to see if it was you, but I've read several posts in here that have very accusatory challenges, along the lines of, "YOU have never read Forgotten Realms lore!" (Implication: "Shame on you, you're not a "real" fan of D&D, you're bad, I don't like you.")
More emotionally provocative statement types I've read in here:
"Have you ever even played this game?" "(Because you're not immediately agreeing with me), You must not even be reading my responses in this thread!"
The hostile posts I've seen stop just short of outright ad hominem argumentation.
Like I said, I don't really understand that.
There is an issue of charisma and "Diplomacy" or "Persuade" skill here, that I think some people could stand to brush up on.
Anyhoo, I don't mean to derail. Could we maybe have a more friendly philosophical discussion about science vs. religion, in both real life and in fantasy games, *now*?
I'm just trying to clear up misunderstandings, here, if I can, because I think there's some very interesting philosophical discussion to be had on this topic.
...Do you think a responsible god like Torm will say 'I don't like this system, change it or I'll take my toys and go home'? What if Ao calls his bluff? If Torm no longer participates in the 'system', that's tantamount to abandonment of his portfolio, and Ao would assign another to take his place. Or another god like Tyr would sieze it.
This consequentialist argument cannot convince one who loves justice. I am saying that yes, he should abandon the pantheon. Principle would demand it. Inflexible adherence to principle is the defining feature of his portfolio (ie if it's Really justice)
edit: this is why, in real life, people "resign in protest."
I think the gods have to follow their portfolio, not be defined by it. There's a certain leeway in how they must act; and we really don't know how much Torm is working to bring justice to the land. He is probably doing everything he can within the limits imposed upon him. It's just that there are other gods too, and they have very different ideas of what they want to happen, often times opposing his work.
If Torm quit, it would be a monumentally stupid thing for him to do. Injustice would basically win, to no purpose. Nothing would change, and the balance of power would be disrupted in favor of evil while Ao hunts for a replacement.
To use a pithy statement, it's not about who's right; it's about who's left.
This is an interesting discussion from the standpoint of the canon setting for Amn when BG2 takes place. Lands of Intrigue states that Amnians fear and distrust wizards. It traces back to wizards unleashing demons on the land through their hubris:
"The only major problems that erupted during these years [760 to 1370 DR] involved evil wizards, as a number of wizards schools and isolated conjurers unleashed many a monster or plague into the lands of Amn. While no one today remembers the specifics of these past actions, the consequences live on: Wizards in Amn are viewed with suspicion at best, and persecuted at worst. Amnian folklore and aphorisms have a distinctly anti-wizard bent."
For example,
"1266 Year of the Leaping Frog: Tanar'ri and power-mad students destroy the School of Wonder, killing nearly every other student and Master within its walls."
The Cowled Wizards in Lands of Intrigue are in fact a clandestine group dedicated to the preservation of the study and practice of arcane magic. Wizards in Amn are on the down low!
Many years ago now when I was involved in writing lore for a roleplaying-intensive NWN2 PW set in Amn during the same era (now defunct best I can tell), I developed the following which takes a few liberties in order to add detail, but is squarely founded on canon:
**Distrust of Arcane Magic**
Amn is a society that is overtly hostile towards practitioners of arcane magic. Mages are either openly persecuted at worst, or regarded with tremendous fear and suspicion at best. This attitude traces to events during the preceding century when evil, power hungry wizards unleashed a variety of monsters and plagues upon the land.
Although many in Amnian society have never had direct experience with a wizard, a prejudice towards wizards still burns in the society from events in the past. With Amn's lack of scholarship and any sort of recorded history, knowledge of the world is heavily stereotyped and biased.
Magic is however not illegal. Instead, it is strictly regulated by the government.
Those who practice arcane magic outside of government supervision are criminals.
The practice of arcane magic in Amn is regulated by the government, specifically by the Meisarch’s office (see Amnian Society, Council of Six*). Arcane magic-users level 5 and above must register with the Meisarch’s city officials and choose to either perform compulsory government service, exile, or death. Level 1-4 practicioners are not required to register.
Certain magic items are illegal contraband. This is mostly a matter of what the government regulates as acceptable for sale to the general public, and especially where. Athkatla has few illegal items, though the sale of more powerful magic items and alchemical compounds is restricted to minors (defined as those under the age of 14). In Esmeltaran prior to the Sythillisian invasion most goods were that were outlawed elsewhere were available. Similarly in Murann before its occupation by the Sythillisians, an alchemists’ guild was sanctioned there by the government. The potions were for sale by this guild in Murann were illegal most other places in Amn.
Generally speaking, the more rural a location, the less tolerance there is for magic.
In the Sythillisian held cities of Esmeltaran, Murann, and Imnescar the occupying monster races, Cyricists, and Amnian traitors use magic freely.
The Eshpurta Road is patroled by Amnian military details of soldiers that regularly inspect PCs' inventories and confiscate illegal items and contraband. Offenders are supposed to be taken into custody. Amn is a land where negotiations are possible for nearly anything of value, however. A bribe may work. Or it may backfire.
**Stong Investment in Divine Magic**
Amn has had centuries of persecution towards wizards because mages have been mostly evil. Amn's wizards have, time and again throughout Amn's history, unleashed monsters and plagues through their experiments and intrigues.
For example in central Amn, a mage academy, the School of Wonder, was constructed near Hillfort Ishla in 1219. 54 years later it was destroyed in when overreaching students unleashed Tanar'ri on the countryside in a power grab. The tales of this event were handed down to the current generation, and indeed many alive in the region today remember that terrible time.
Such events illustrate the reasons behind Amnians' fear of magic. The distrust stems from mortals' hubris and the quest for ever greater personal power--and given Amnian culture, rightly so, it seems.
However, although Amnian society rejects the use of arcane magic, divine magic is fully embraced. A priest gains his powers from a god, so at least there is some sort of check on those powers by divine wisdom. It is power granted in the service of a deity, the god's dogma and ethos. A priest's power derives from a force far greater, wiser, and more powerful than oneself.
Amn is highly tolerant of every religion among the human pantheon of deities (and highly intolerant of all religions other than human). Items may be blessed by priests of various faiths, and combat gear may infused with divine magic.
Divine magic is especially vital in the war against the Sythillisian Empire, since the enemy embraces arcane magic. One might think the peril Amn faces from the Sythillisians is conducive to a change of heart in the culture about the use of magic. But the war has only deepened Amn's abiding fear and distrust of arcane magic. Amnians have never seen arcane magic applied toward a prosocial end. And here they are witnessing its use to the most catastrophic outcome imaginable. Sythillisian use of arcane magic simply serves as proof in their minds that they have been correct in their beliefs all along.
* **Meisarch**
* final overseer of all internal defense * monitors activities of all wizards and adventurers in Amn, who are required to register with the Amnian government * controls selection of mages who wish to align with the government * ensures that no single family forms a monopoly in any sector of trade
Jon Irenicus must have kept his experimentation top secret, for having all that research and development in the centre of Athkatla at Waukeen´s Promenade. This rises a question, however; how can a mage of his power level be so ignorant as to keep on his spellcasting, even though it attracts attention of the authorities? Or is he oblivious to it, being consumed by the rage that the interruption has brought up?
Secondly, I think Gaal is kind of a right in his sermon about the clerics being nothing more but service providers, making money out of the injured. None of the churches have yet to show a even the slightest concern about vampires stalking the night - are they interested only in the loss of their own followers, thus making the lives of the Shadow Thiefs less valuable?
Godhood was attainable in the Icewind Dale : Heart of Winter - it was just the result of reaching the experience cap. In game terms, what if after achieving that power level, the character would be contacted by Ao in some fitting manner, like sending the solar, for instance, with some brochures about the godly portfolios. and the recently ascended, juvenile god could take his or her time in deciding what would he or she like to be known about - what would be the spheres of divinity he or she´d like to be associated with?
After the profiling of divinity, the next step would be selecting a convenient place for business, the clerk to do the customer´s bidding, and then most importantly, the items for sale, spells to be cast for a cost of fixed gold amount, and the donation plate. Clearly, godhood in function is all about making gold!
Comments
As I said, in Faerun, the standard response to Drow is to shove a sword through their chests or to shoot them with arrows. Given that they are attempting to burn her at the stake, and that takes a good deal more effort than the other solution, the only logical reasoning is that they think the extra effort is necessary. And given the symbolism, it's pretty clear that they think she's a Witch. Plus, she's screaming at the top of her lungs for Shar to protect her so....
Also, your wizard could use some lore reading. Being a god in FR is much more about responsibility than power. When gods neglected their responsibilities, the Time of Troubles came. And the whole Baldur's Gate thing happened.
In fact, a god is a squirrel in a wheel. There is a portfolio to be followed, there are followers to take care of, there are greater gods to serve to, there are lesser gods to support, there are enemy gods to oppose. And the battle will never be over, because it's all about balance. ToB ascension ending pretty much describes it.
And the standard response to drow is usually sword and arrow because they're in battle. It is not typically "standard" to catch one alive. In the unlikely event that it actually does happen, who are we to speculate as to what is normally done? There is not enough precedent to draw a conclusion that it is or is not typical. Judging by Viconia's experience, I'd say that it is.
If we're talking about the nature of magic in the Forgotten Realms lore and rules, that link explains it pretty clearly. It says pretty authoritatively that divine and arcane magic are two different animals, *in the game*.
I think @the_spyder wasn't really wanting to discuss the rules, though. I think he wanted to have an interesting discussion about possibly drawing an analogy between mages and clerics in the FR world, and scientists and pastors/priests in our world.
That's not really new thinking. I've thought for a long time that if magic were real in our world, the formulae of chemistry and physics, and the schematics of engineers and technicians, as well as the programming syntax of our computer experts, would certainly represent it.
Think about it a bit - just look carefully at some chemical formula, physics equation, schematic, or written computer program that you are not trained to understand. To me, it looks exactly like drawings of arcane spells and mystical powers. The only difference is that those are real, and the arcane writings in fantasy art are made up.
(Although, it's an interesting aside to talk about how the artists invoke "magic" in a drawing of an arcane text or a set of glyphs. I've noticed that they often resort to using Greek lettering, or ancient pictographs such as those from Egypt or Babylon, or astrological glyphs. I even find that looking at Japanese or Chinese lettering invokes a sense of the mysterious to me, while that would look totally mundane to someone who actually speaks those languages. Our posts in English could look arcane to someone who'd never studied our alphabet and phonics. It's no accident that we use the word "spell" in English to mean both "correct ordering of letters to form written words", and "an arcane incantation.")
I'm surprised at how heated some of these posts are. I don't really understand that. Is the hostility toward "thinking outside the box" of Forgotten Realms rules, inspired by them creatively toward philosophical thought, but not actually playing a game and bound by them, coming from what we might call "rules lawyers"? That's actually not something that's considered good to be among most D&D players.
As far as in-game mages aspiring to be gods, that's not far-fetched at all within the context of the Baldur's Gate games. Irenicus thought he could do it, and he would have if Charname hadn't stopped him. And any player character mage can rather obviously become a god, because of the Bhaalspawn thing.
I like your thinking in that many scientific methodologies and programming even lend themselves to how magic is portrayed in a fantasy setting like The Forgotten realms. It's true, or at least I consider it so. I'd go so far as to say that was the intent, at least to some degree. And considering the types of people who play the game, and who write it, not to mention the mechanical nature of the game itself, that makes a good deal of sense to me.
I also think there is an element of art to the whole thing. After all, there is huge mysticism and magestry associated with the subject matter. Grand schemes, Phantoms and Emperors, dragon hoards and wondrous magic. Quite poetic in my mind.
As I stated in my original post, my wizard (which I invariably play) always ends up thinking that he is unique and destined to rule over the gods themselves. As he grows in power as the game progresses, he eventually approaches Godhood. And as he learns more magic, he elevates himself in his own mind. I draw a direct correlation between the two when playing the character. I'd have a real hard time seeing him worshiping anyone other than himself. He also has a distinct disdain for what he thinks of as a weakness in the Divine magic realms. Yet still he is drawn to Viconia like a moth to a flame.
I had originally wondered, long before this became a hatchet job, if others saw the poetry in this way of thinking the way I do. I'm gratified that someone at least got the topic and understood the intent.
Anyway, as I like to see the fanatsy setting mages are indeed somewhat closer to scientists than some other proffesions, even if that is just a way for me to catalogue in a very rough way the different mindsets that might be prevalent in the FR. I guess many rangers are just as interested in deeper questions which might be akin to scientific research in the real world (due to interest in the natural world) - not just a tree-logger equivalent. However, I often think that the best mages are driven either by ambition or curiosity (or both) - and that these drives would indeed lead some mages to challenge, or at least think about challenging the gods. Many might dismiss the notion early on, some might try and fail spectacularly, but I also think that many mages might be disinterested in powers through the gods, and be more interested in power through themselves.
Look guys, I'm an attorney okay? I love playing devil's advocate and to me this entire debate with thespyder was alot of fun. I love to argue, even forcefully argue, but if you ever sensed hostility from me, that was not the intent.
And hey, I love speculation. I get your point. you don't want to talk about the rules. Fine. But what you do want to do is speculate about the thoughts, desires, aspirations, and motivations of the characters of the game.
Well those characters live in the world of the Forgotten Realms. That's a fact. And how in the world can you speculate about them without knowing the world within which they live?
The world they live in has a weave. It has a pantheon of gods. It has a history. So answer me now, how can you draw any conclusions with any accuracy about their motives or desires without considering those things?
You may think it comes off as me being a "rule" stickler, but all I was trying to do was accurately answer the question posed, which required postulating about a mage's desires and motives, which required taking into account the world they live in, which required knowing, for lack of a better word, the rules that govern said world.
But hey, agree to disagree. Apparently my position and the arguments that support it (persuasive ones in my opinion btw) are offensive to some. So I shall let it end at this.
I think the disconnect has to do with the fact that we philosophers are trying to use Forgotten Realms games and lore in order to draw insights that expand our minds in real life.
I don't think your arguments are "offensive" at all, I just think that in some posts, you seem to be missing the point of what we philosophers enjoy. We like to analyze and dissect everything from all fields of endeavor, including science, architecture, art, music, history, linguistics, literature, and yes, even the entire cultural phenomenon of Dungeons and Dragons in all incarnations, and then attempt to put it all back together into some new insight that gives us an increased awareness of *the human mind*. The *human mind* really turns us on, especially our own, individual minds, and it's almost as good as sex to us if we can connect with another philosophical human mind and feel like we're gaining new insights *together*.
I'd have to read back to see if it was you, but I've read several posts in here that have very accusatory challenges, along the lines of, "YOU have never read Forgotten Realms lore!" (Implication: "Shame on you, you're not a "real" fan of D&D, you're bad, I don't like you.")
More emotionally provocative statement types I've read in here:
"Have you ever even played this game?"
"(Because you're not immediately agreeing with me), You must not even be reading my responses in this thread!"
The hostile posts I've seen stop just short of outright ad hominem argumentation.
Like I said, I don't really understand that.
There is an issue of charisma and "Diplomacy" or "Persuade" skill here, that I think some people could stand to brush up on.
Anyhoo, I don't mean to derail. Could we maybe have a more friendly philosophical discussion about science vs. religion, in both real life and in fantasy games, *now*?
I'm just trying to clear up misunderstandings, here, if I can, because I think there's some very interesting philosophical discussion to be had on this topic.
If Torm quit, it would be a monumentally stupid thing for him to do. Injustice would basically win, to no purpose. Nothing would change, and the balance of power would be disrupted in favor of evil while Ao hunts for a replacement.
To use a pithy statement, it's not about who's right; it's about who's left.
"The only major problems that erupted during these years [760 to 1370 DR] involved evil wizards, as a number of wizards schools and isolated conjurers unleashed many a monster or plague into the lands of Amn. While no one today remembers the specifics of these past actions, the consequences live on: Wizards in Amn are viewed with suspicion at best, and persecuted at worst. Amnian folklore and aphorisms have a distinctly anti-wizard bent."
For example,
"1266 Year of the Leaping Frog: Tanar'ri and power-mad students destroy the School of Wonder, killing nearly every other student and Master within its walls."
The Cowled Wizards in Lands of Intrigue are in fact a clandestine group dedicated to the preservation of the study and practice of arcane magic. Wizards in Amn are on the down low!
Many years ago now when I was involved in writing lore for a roleplaying-intensive NWN2 PW set in Amn during the same era (now defunct best I can tell), I developed the following which takes a few liberties in order to add detail, but is squarely founded on canon:
**Distrust of Arcane Magic**
Amn is a society that is overtly hostile towards practitioners of arcane magic. Mages are either openly persecuted at worst, or regarded with tremendous fear and suspicion at best. This attitude traces to events during the preceding century when evil, power hungry wizards unleashed a variety of monsters and plagues upon the land.
Although many in Amnian society have never had direct experience with a wizard, a prejudice towards wizards still burns in the society from events in the past. With Amn's lack of scholarship and any sort of recorded history, knowledge of the world is heavily stereotyped and biased.
Magic is however not illegal. Instead, it is strictly regulated by the government.
Those who practice arcane magic outside of government supervision are criminals.
The practice of arcane magic in Amn is regulated by the government, specifically by the Meisarch’s office (see Amnian Society, Council of Six*). Arcane magic-users level 5 and above must register with the Meisarch’s city officials and choose to either perform compulsory government service, exile, or death. Level 1-4 practicioners are not required to register.
Certain magic items are illegal contraband. This is mostly a matter of what the government regulates as acceptable for sale to the general public, and especially where. Athkatla has few illegal items, though the sale of more powerful magic items and alchemical compounds is restricted to minors (defined as those under the age of 14). In Esmeltaran prior to the Sythillisian invasion most goods were that were outlawed elsewhere were available. Similarly in Murann before its occupation by the Sythillisians, an alchemists’ guild was sanctioned there by the government. The potions were for sale by this guild in Murann were illegal most other places in Amn.
Generally speaking, the more rural a location, the less tolerance there is for magic.
In the Sythillisian held cities of Esmeltaran, Murann, and Imnescar the occupying monster races, Cyricists, and Amnian traitors use magic freely.
The Eshpurta Road is patroled by Amnian military details of soldiers that regularly inspect PCs' inventories and confiscate illegal items and contraband. Offenders are supposed to be taken into custody. Amn is a land where negotiations are possible for nearly anything of value, however. A bribe may work. Or it may backfire.
**Stong Investment in Divine Magic**
Amn has had centuries of persecution towards wizards because mages have been mostly evil. Amn's wizards have, time and again throughout Amn's history, unleashed monsters and plagues through their experiments and intrigues.
For example in central Amn, a mage academy, the School of Wonder, was constructed near Hillfort Ishla in 1219. 54 years later it was destroyed in when overreaching students unleashed Tanar'ri on the countryside in a power grab. The tales of this event were handed down to the current generation, and indeed many alive in the region today remember that terrible time.
Such events illustrate the reasons behind Amnians' fear of magic. The distrust stems from mortals' hubris and the quest for ever greater personal power--and given Amnian culture, rightly so, it seems.
However, although Amnian society rejects the use of arcane magic, divine magic is fully embraced. A priest gains his powers from a god, so at least there is some sort of check on those powers by divine wisdom. It is power granted in the service of a deity, the god's dogma and ethos. A priest's power derives from a force far greater, wiser, and more powerful than oneself.
Amn is highly tolerant of every religion among the human pantheon of deities (and highly intolerant of all religions other than human). Items may be blessed by priests of various faiths, and combat gear may infused with divine magic.
Divine magic is especially vital in the war against the Sythillisian Empire, since the enemy embraces arcane magic. One might think the peril Amn faces from the Sythillisians is conducive to a change of heart in the culture about the use of magic. But the war has only deepened Amn's abiding fear and distrust of arcane magic. Amnians have never seen arcane magic applied toward a prosocial end. And here they are witnessing its use to the most catastrophic outcome imaginable. Sythillisian use of arcane magic simply serves as proof in their minds that they have been correct in their beliefs all along.
* **Meisarch**
* final overseer of all internal defense
* monitors activities of all wizards and adventurers in Amn, who are required to register with the Amnian government
* controls selection of mages who wish to align with the government
* ensures that no single family forms a monopoly in any sector of trade
Jon Irenicus must have kept his experimentation top secret, for having all that research and development in the centre of Athkatla at Waukeen´s Promenade. This rises a question, however; how can a mage of his power level be so ignorant as to keep on his spellcasting, even though it attracts attention of the authorities? Or is he oblivious to it, being consumed by the rage that the interruption has brought up?
Secondly, I think Gaal is kind of a right in his sermon about the clerics being nothing more but service providers, making money out of the injured. None of the churches have yet to show a even the slightest concern about vampires stalking the night - are they interested only in the loss of their own followers, thus making the lives of the Shadow Thiefs less valuable?
Godhood was attainable in the Icewind Dale : Heart of Winter - it was just the result of reaching the experience cap. In game terms, what if after achieving that power level, the character would be contacted by Ao in some fitting manner, like sending the solar, for instance, with some brochures about the godly portfolios. and the recently ascended, juvenile god could take his or her time in deciding what would he or she like to be known about - what would be the spheres of divinity he or she´d like to be associated with?
After the profiling of divinity, the next step would be selecting a convenient place for business, the clerk to do the customer´s bidding, and then most importantly, the items for sale, spells to be cast for a cost of fixed gold amount, and the donation plate. Clearly, godhood in function is all about making gold!