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I just realized something about the multiclasses options

GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
If i'm not mistaking, a Ranger/Cleric multiclass is an improved Fighter/Cleric ?

The only benefice of playing a Fighter is the Grandmastery, but a Fighter/Cleric can't reach it.
Post edited by Gotural on

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  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    People like Ranger/Cleric because of its broken spell selection; rangers get "druid" divine spells but since the engine only has two spellbooks (divine/arcane) rather than one for each class (mage/cleric/druid/ranger/bard etc.) ranger/clerics end up with both druid spells and cleric spells. The ranger would normally not get access to druid or nature spells of the higher tiers due to their slow spell progression but clerics do.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @Gotural Ignoring race choices you're basically right.
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    The thing is though Dave that while the Ranger would eventually get access to those same spells on level Billion (not disputing that), they get access to them at level Fraction instead, since the cleric's spell progression is much much faster. Maybe I shouldn't use the word "broken", but it is due to engine limitation. Surely the way it should be is that they'd get the druid spells according to their ranger spell level progression and the cleric spells according to their cleric spell progression.. but, as noted, there is only priest/wizard.
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    atcDave said:

    I'd say the real engine limitation is in not doing a full break down of spells by sphere, and then assigning those spheres to the appropriate priesthoods.
    But it strikes me as a reasonable sort of compromise to keep things from being too complex. A really thorough implementation would have had each priesthood with its own spell list. Imagine if all those evil clerics had no access to healing magic! That would have been awesome, and more like PNP. But they simplify a lot, and that's fine. This remains the most complete AD&D implementation we'll ever see!

    Yes, the system works as it is... I still want more Cleric kits though! Hell, I'd even pay for that as downloadable content. Anyway I'll stop derailing the thread now. Thanks for the insight into P&P priestyness btw.
  • TarlugnTarlugn Member Posts: 209
    Well, for being a ranger, you get to select a Favored Enemy (+4 to hit one type of creature) and gain two stars for two-weapon fighting for free. I am no sure though why, but my ranger/cleric couldn´t add the third star to two-weapon fighting, which I think should be possible, at least with the fighter/cleric.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    @atcDave
    Wait a minute... Evil Clerics in ADnD could not cast any healing spells, period?
    I know that this is not true in 3.5E. There Clerics just have to prepare healing spells like normal spells instead of converting them.

    How did Evil Clerics evil survive basic adventuring in ADnD? Drinking healing potions like water?
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,394
    edited February 2014
    Archaos said:

    @atcDave
    Wait a minute... Evil Clerics in ADnD could not cast any healing spells, period?
    I know that this is not true in 3.5E. There Clerics just have to prepare healing spells like normal spells instead of converting them.

    How did Evil Clerics evil survive basic adventuring in ADnD? Drinking healing potions like water?

    Different DMs might handle it differently, but it was pretty strongly suggested in the rules that evil clerics could not cast healing spells, in both 1E and 2E.
    Of course it also says pretty clearly that players are not allowed to play evil characters. So it really isn't a problem for any party. As a DM you have to figure out how evil cleric characters will sustain themselves; I figure they do a lot of running away and make extensive use of meat shields.
    Players do need to look at what spells are available to the different priesthoods too! I'm not sure about the Realms, but in the setting I use there are even some good aligned priesthoods that don't have access to healing spells.
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    Not sure I agree with @atcDave here - at least in the standard 2nd edition rules there's nothing to suggest that evil priests can't cast healing spells.

    Cure Light Wounds (Necromancy) Reversible
    Sphere: Healing
    Range: Touch
    Duration: Permanent
    Area of Effect: Creature touched
    Components: V, S Casting Time: 5 Saving Throw: None
    When casting this spell and laying his hand upon a creature, the priest causes 1d8 points of wound or other injury damage to the creature's body to be healed. This healing cannot affect creatures without corporeal bodies, nor can it cure wounds of creatures not living or of extraplanar origin.
    The reverse of the spell, cause light wounds, operates in the same manner, inflicting 1d8 points of damage. If a creature is avoiding this touch, an attack roll is needed to determine if the priest's hand strikes the opponent and causes such a wound.
    Curing is permanent only insofar as the creature does not sustain further damage; caused wounds will heal--or can be cured--just as any normal injury.

    So if you have the spell, no restrictions.


    Bog standard 2nd edition PHB Cleric:

    Cleric
    Ability Requirement: Prime Requisite: Races Allowed:
    Wisdom 9 Wisdom All
    The most common type of priest is the cleric. The cleric may be an adherent of any religion (though if the DM designs a specific mythos, the cleric's abilities and spells may be changed--see following). Clerics are generally good, but are not restricted to good; they can have any alignment acceptable to their order.
    ...
    A cleric has major access to every sphere of influence except the plant, animal, weather, and elemental spheres (he has minor access to the elemental sphere and cannot cast spells of the other three spheres).

    So a normal cleric who could be of any approriate alignement had access to healing sphere.


    Now if you introduce specialty priests they usually have a much more restricted selection of Spheres (sometimes but not always compensated by some special powers) and certainly there were some which didn't have healing - but I wouldn't generalize it and as far as I remember most had at least minor healing.

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,394
    I'm at a disadvantage without my books handy, I'll have to look into it more later. It is possible it is more of a 1E thing. And yeah, every PNP game I've played for 20 years now uses specialty priests only.

    One possible problem though is the comment about "any allowed alignment". Remember 2E core rules discouraged evil aligned PCs entirely, so info on evil characters and classes may be more in the DMG. Again, I'll have to do some research to see where I got that recollection from.
  • ForgottenMythForgottenMyth Member Posts: 60
    it comes from a RP standpoint. Its the idea that since a priest has to pray to his deity for spells, why would any evil god want to grant their follower healing spells except for a very special circumstance. Its going against many faith's dogmas
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,394

    it comes from a RP standpoint. Its the idea that since a priest has to pray to his deity for spells, why would any evil god want to grant their follower healing spells except for a very special circumstance. Its going against many faith's dogmas

    Oh yeah I agree 100% about that. I'd even say since evil is often all about power and a "survival of the fittest" sort of mentality an evil deity would likely have no use for a cleric who would dare ask for healing.

    But I know I've seen it writing too. Finding it now may be a challenge!
  • ForgottenMythForgottenMyth Member Posts: 60
    edited February 2014
    I first heard of it from one of R.A. Salvatore's books, a Drow priestess needs to keep a prisoner alive or something and only then would Lolth have granted a healing spell. It could be in one of the priest handbooks but then again many early sources say just use your best judgement and imagination.

    another thing touched upon is that pre time of troubles, gods weren't even really obligated to give a damn about their followers and afterward the pantheons were restructured in a way that gods' powers were derived from the number of followers.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,394
    Most of that is very setting specific though. I know I've seen it in writing in more general terms for AD&D.
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    Heh, we had so many "house rules" that were/are like writren in stone and by now we're hard pressed to say what is actually rules and what has always been like that. Been playing with the same core of people for 25 years now and yes, we're still using second edition. I'm just on a hiatus at the moment due to my assignment in India.

    But keep in mind: even an evil priest will want to keep his followers in line and unless the deity is totally CE letting them die from minor wounds that could easily be healed is a waste.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,394
    edited February 2014
    No matter what may be smart though, I think it's entirely reasonable to say there may be some metaphysical rules out of the control of the cleric, or even the deity.
    That's certainly how we always ran it, doesn't really matter how much it might help the cause, a cleric of say Hades or Ares simply has no ability to heal.

    And yeah I'm in exactly the same place with house rules. I have my own Player's Handbook and DMG, hundreds of pages of house rules that have developed over many years. More than 30 years now since 1E came out! It is often very difficult to track down the history of something.
    Post edited by atcDave on
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I'd buy that if the good deities also refused to grant harmful spells.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,394

    I'd buy that if the good deities also refused to grant harmful spells.

    Yes, it was absolutely in writing that way... at some point.... in some rules set...

  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    edited February 2014
    That was one of our house rules: since this is literally draining the life force away it was an inherently evil act so a complete no-no for the good guys.

    Same for using poison, opinions were not as clear on that one but we kept to it nevertheless.
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  • BlucherBlucher Member Posts: 110
    Evil clerics could cast healing spells in AD&D2. Good clerics, on the other hand, could not cast the reverse/harmful versions (well, typically).

    Evil characters were not forbidden, but some advice to the reader bits sort of gently discouraged them.

    As for R/C getting high level druid spells with his cleric spell progression... I'd say both sides of the argument are right. In AD&D2, Druids were just a particularly well-defined specialty priest (whereas in AD&D1 they were a distinct class altogether). A hypothetical Ranger/Specialty (Nature) Priest could have all (or most) of the usual Druid spells, in PnP. In BG(2) there are only two priest spell lists: Druid and Cleric, so it's not unreasonable to think that a R/C's cleric spells shouldn't have access to the Druid spell list.
  • TarlugnTarlugn Member Posts: 209
    After experiencing the awesome power that Dorn wields - namely Absorb Health - I´d like to see an additional spell like that to clerics, perhaps neutral clerics only... but how game-breaking it would be?
    Could it feel balanced If the amounts of the cure and inflict spells were halved, for example? Druids could use this kind of spell to have some more offensive edge - or then some of their spells might be improved by giving them a "drain life" -effect (if anyone has ever felt what it is to be swarmed by mosquitoes in the summer, it feels logical that the blood they drain would nourish the caster).
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