Cheese or not cheese
mumumomo
Member Posts: 635
I have started this discussion in another thread (on cheating) but i would like to lead it further
I would like to know your view (cheesy or not? )on the following items which may or may not be considered as cheesy.
I give my personnal view in front of each.
Feel free to also add some other ideas to comment :
Items :
- instant item swap during a fight to provide to the good character THE item providing the right immunity. -> cheesy
- using equipment order to get normally impossible effects (like improve haste and free actions, or more than 50MR with carsomyr)-> not cheesy
- using Staff of the Magi invisbility constantly to be untargettable by your ennemies -> cheesy
- using Staff of the Magi invisbility to escape a fight -> not cheesy
- using protection from undead scrolls to kill lich with no reactions (you can do all liches/demi lich in athkatla with 1 scroll) -> cheesy
- using the shield of balduran to kill beholders -> not cheesy
Project image/simulacrum :
- using it to be able to use your whole spell list for the cost of 1 level 7 spell -> not cheesy
- using it to bypass some normal limitations (like max number of summons) -> cheesy
- using it to use rare items several times(like prot from magic scroll, level 9 scrolls, ...) -> cheesy
- use in conjunction of wish to automatically get the rest all party option -> not cheesy
Mislead :
- parking your mislead on the other side of the map so it cannot be dispelled -> cheesy
- using several singing mislead with your bard -> cheesy
- use mislead (not parked away) to backstab 10 times / round -> not cheesy
Various spells :
- using chain contigency in the middle of a fight to cast instantly 3 spells -> cheesy
- prebuffing to adapt to metagame knowledge (like charm person or stone to flesh trap or demilich casting imprisonment) -> cheesy (but sometimes necessary)
- using improve invisibility/spell immunity divinition to kill all casters wiht no reaction -> not cheesy
Traps :
- laying traps in front of neutral ennemies (dragons...) -> not cheesy
- laying traps on spawn points (twisted rune) -> cheesy
- sleeping to maximize the number of traps you lay in front of a neutral ennemy or a spawn point -> cheesy
Misc :
- using pickpocket to get infinite money from the fences -> cheesy
- recharge items by reselling -> not cheesy (no impact on the game anyway)
- casting to ennemies hidden in the fog of war -> cheesy if more than 1 spell
- kiting -> cheesy but necessary in BG1
- backstab -> run -> hide away -> backstab tactics : not cheesy (but boring)
I would like to know your view (cheesy or not? )on the following items which may or may not be considered as cheesy.
I give my personnal view in front of each.
Feel free to also add some other ideas to comment :
Items :
- instant item swap during a fight to provide to the good character THE item providing the right immunity. -> cheesy
- using equipment order to get normally impossible effects (like improve haste and free actions, or more than 50MR with carsomyr)-> not cheesy
- using Staff of the Magi invisbility constantly to be untargettable by your ennemies -> cheesy
- using Staff of the Magi invisbility to escape a fight -> not cheesy
- using protection from undead scrolls to kill lich with no reactions (you can do all liches/demi lich in athkatla with 1 scroll) -> cheesy
- using the shield of balduran to kill beholders -> not cheesy
Project image/simulacrum :
- using it to be able to use your whole spell list for the cost of 1 level 7 spell -> not cheesy
- using it to bypass some normal limitations (like max number of summons) -> cheesy
- using it to use rare items several times(like prot from magic scroll, level 9 scrolls, ...) -> cheesy
- use in conjunction of wish to automatically get the rest all party option -> not cheesy
Mislead :
- parking your mislead on the other side of the map so it cannot be dispelled -> cheesy
- using several singing mislead with your bard -> cheesy
- use mislead (not parked away) to backstab 10 times / round -> not cheesy
Various spells :
- using chain contigency in the middle of a fight to cast instantly 3 spells -> cheesy
- prebuffing to adapt to metagame knowledge (like charm person or stone to flesh trap or demilich casting imprisonment) -> cheesy (but sometimes necessary)
- using improve invisibility/spell immunity divinition to kill all casters wiht no reaction -> not cheesy
Traps :
- laying traps in front of neutral ennemies (dragons...) -> not cheesy
- laying traps on spawn points (twisted rune) -> cheesy
- sleeping to maximize the number of traps you lay in front of a neutral ennemy or a spawn point -> cheesy
Misc :
- using pickpocket to get infinite money from the fences -> cheesy
- recharge items by reselling -> not cheesy (no impact on the game anyway)
- casting to ennemies hidden in the fog of war -> cheesy if more than 1 spell
- kiting -> cheesy but necessary in BG1
- backstab -> run -> hide away -> backstab tactics : not cheesy (but boring)
0
Comments
Impossible effects from equipment order: I never even figured out this was possible, and even now it's a little difficult to imagine what you mean. But it's probably cheesy.
Staff of the Magi invisibility: definitely cheesy. And I use it all the damn time!
Staff of the Magi invisibility for escape: less so.
Protection from Undead against Liches: it's the expected use of the items. Not cheesy, perfectly within the game's norms.
Shield of Balduran against beholders: as above, quite fine.
Project Image to save spells: cheesy, but never stopped me from doing it.
Bypass max number of summons and stuff: probably cheesy.
Use rare items several times: definitely cheesy, though I never put it to use. I probably should, though.
Project Image + Wish to rest the whole party: that particular Wish pretty much does the exact same thing whether you cast it from Project Image or not. So, not cheesy.
Anything involving Mislead that you just said: cheesy. And I will have to remember these strategies: I've never found anything to use for Mislead.
Chain Contingency in the middle of a fight: you'll want Spell Trigger for that. I believe Chain Contingency is more powerful, though, so it'd be kinda cheesy.
Metagame prebuffing: better be cheesy than flip the table.
Improved Invisibility and/or Spell Immunity Divination against casters: Why did no one ever tell me that I could do this?! (A bit cheesy, though.)
Traps: All of those are cheesy, even the neutral enemy bit. Why would the dragon just watch as we trap his lair? Not that it never stopped me doing it.
Infinite pickpocket money: cheesy
Recharge items by reselling: inconsequential, as you say it.
Casting through fog: yeah kinda cheesy.
Kiting: necessary? Pffhaha. It is a bit cheesy regardless.
Backstab, run, hide, repeat: kinda cheesy, and definitely not boring - it's my favorite tactic in the game.
Conclusion: I eat plenty of cheese and I don't care!
1- How could be cheesy a simple spell effect expected by the trigger selection itself?
2- How could not be cheesy wandering around people laying bunches of traps knowing that the npc, as long as he/she remains neutral, will not suspect anything and will have not any preventive reaction, and he/she will explode as soon as will become enemy?
"- laying traps in front of neutral ennemies (dragons...) -> not cheesy" BS. It enables to almost kill/kill neutral-at-first enemies like that. It's no different from laying traps on spawning spots, really.
Metagaming that an enemy is there is no different to scouting with a hidden thief + cloak of non-detection. If you can ambush them from out of sight, sounds like a good tactic to me.
The fact that in vanilla they stand in cloudkill and die is dumb, but if you install SCS that won't happen anymore (Unless you throw a few webs + greater malison and THEN cloudkill
Traps in front of neutral enemies is definite cheese. Impossible effects by item order is also cheese.
Casting protection from magic on an enemy.
I'm kinda torn on this. Given that as far as I know there are only TWO scrolls in BG2, they should be suitably powerful. If you use project image or sims to have infinite scrolls that's blatant cheese.
Items :
- instant item swap during a fight to provide to the good character THE item providing the right immunity. -> not cheesy
- using equipment order to get normally impossible effects (like improve haste and free actions, or more than 50MR with carsomyr)-> cheesy
- using Staff of the Magi invisbility constantly to be untargettable by your ennemies -> cheesy
- using Staff of the Magi invisbility to escape a fight -> not cheesy
- using protection from undead scrolls to kill lich with no reactions (you can do all liches/demi lich in athkatla with 1 scroll) -> somewhat cheesy
- using the shield of balduran to kill beholders -> cheesy
Project image/simulacrum :
- using it to be able to use your whole spell list for the cost of 1 level 7 spell -> not cheesy
- using it to bypass some normal limitations (like max number of summons) -> not cheesy (summoning limits are lame)
- using it to use rare items several times(like prot from magic scroll, level 9 scrolls, ...) -> not cheesy
- use in conjunction of wish to automatically get the rest all party option -> not cheesy
Mislead :
- parking your mislead on the other side of the map so it cannot be dispelled -> cheesy
- using several singing mislead with your bard -> not cheesy
- use mislead (not parked away) to backstab 10 times / round -> somewhat cheesy
Various spells :
- using chain contigency in the middle of a fight to cast instantly 3 spells -> not cheesy
- prebuffing to adapt to metagame knowledge (like charm person or stone to flesh trap or demilich casting imprisonment) -> not cheesy
- using improve invisibility/spell immunity divinition to kill all casters wiht no reaction -> somewhat cheesy
Traps :
- laying traps in front of neutral ennemies (dragons...) -> cheesy (dragon's AI shouldn't be that stupid)
- laying traps on spawn points (twisted rune) -> not cheesy
- sleeping to maximize the number of traps you lay in front of a neutral ennemy or a spawn point -> not cheesy
Misc :
- using pickpocket to get infinite money from the fences -> cheesy (but awesome)
- recharge items by reselling -> not cheesy
- casting to ennemies hidden in the fog of war -> not cheesy
- kiting -> hard to say. More the result of dumb AI. I'll say not necessarily cheesy.
- backstab -> run -> hide away -> backstab tactics : not cheesy
I also think that using the Shield of Balduran isn't cheesy, it's like using the Cloak of Mirroring against them, but a little better since it reflects all the rays (except for Anti-Magic Ray) back to the Beholder.
All my item swap are weapons, right now my PC has Peridian (the Dragon Slayer Sword+2) and the Sword of Neutrality (The Equalizer) dual wielding just for the immunities, but Blackrazor is going to replace Peridian! for better immunities and higher enchantment, better regeneration, etc.
I don't use Chain Contingency in the middle of the fight in the EE, just because their casting time has been fixed and it takes too long, but I use Nahal's Reckless Dweomers to cast them, snce they don't cause Wild Surges and it's a lvl1 spell for a lvl9 spell (also works with Sequencers IIRC).
Instant item swapping: Cheesy, it's unrealistic to instantly sort through my pack while battling to find the right item to toss across to the necessary person who needs to be able to catch probably whilst also battling. The caveat being if they're both unengaged from battle and close to each other, I'll allow it.
Equipment order: Cheesy. This is game limitations being abused, the intention is for certain effects not to stack
Using the staff of the magi to be untargetable: Not cheesy, if I had that item I'd constantly be exchanging it from one hand to the other
Use of chain contingencies: Not cheesy, it works as intended
Using pickpocket for infinite money: Not cheesy, pickpocketing is all about making money
Fog of war and kiting: Not cheesy, again I'd do this in real life. Scout their position and lob some fireballs from out of sight "huh, what the? Where are th-" (dead), seems perfectly sound strategically. Similarly running away, turning to attack is classic flanking/harrying tactics
Everything else i pretty much agree on.
If you are in a real solo run Beholder's script is so clumsy that you don't have to worry much about them, on the other hand, Mind Flayers... Oh, what a pain...
also you need to remember it's rogues and thieves who are laying these traps...these are sneaky sneaky people. also regarding spawn points, in cases like the last seal of watcher's keep where groups spawn in the same place three times and where demogorgon spawns, these are obvious places to lay traps even without metaknowledge
Also if I lay 2 or 3 traps in the room before and then I lure my foe into them I don't see it as cheesy: it's a strategy. Laying 20 traps resting every time to regain traps IS cheesy.
- using chain contigency in the middle of a fight to cast instantly 3 spells -> it was cheesy for me because i did not know the casting time had been fixed (it was instant cast before). With a long casting time, not cheesy (working as intended)
- laying traps in front of neutral ennemies (dragons...) -> i agree this one is cheesy. The problem is almost all useful trap usage have to be cheesy. Luring ennemies workmost mostly will melee fodder. Most real ennemies in the game are mages and they tend to be static.
For the shadow dragon under the protection of the stone, it is not cheesy IMO.
- shield of balduran on beholder is cheesy because there is anyway no non-cheesy tactics to be used against them (power word reload until getting lucky IS cheesy)
- As for casting through fog, i am surprised that a few people don't consider that as cheesy since it prevents the ennemy from fighting back because of broken AI. Sure casting 1 fireball is perfectly suitable. But casting 10 is silly. In "reality" the ennemy would react, flee, search for you instead of waiting patiently to be blasted to oblivion.
- kiting is fine for me if you have a speed advantage. Otherwise it is completely unrealistic. Let's say you are running and the other guy is right behind you. By the time you stop, take your bow and arrow and aim he would beat the pulp out of you.
What i find interesting is that views are very much different from one player to another.
Here is the rules i tend/try to use
- not intended by the game and breaking the game (like summoning 10 planetars with project image) is definitely cheesy for me
- not intended and giving advantage without breaking the game (like ring of gaax first, then carsomyr) : ok for me
- intended by the game but breaking the game -> depends whether it's "realistic" or not.
Using pickpocket to get infinite money is not realistic for me. Furthermore it can be done with no effort at all (just take 4-5 potions on any level 1 thief).
On the contrary project image/time stop/improved alacrity/ kill every thing is much more a game breaker but i do it nonetheless because it is clearly working as intended and i had to work hard to get to that level of godlike power.
- no other way to beat the game other than reloading (metagaming prebuffing for some traps or fights, beholders) : i do.
In summary (i do not always respect these rules. Nobody is perfect):
not intended/game breaking : I don't do
not intended/not game breaking : I do
intended/game breaking/realistic : I do
intended/game breaking/non realistic : I don't do
Anyway, since it is a single player game, anyone can do what he wants.
My favorite cheese is rolling a Berserker.