party of all specialist mage NPCs (spoilers)

Lemernis

For the uninitiated there are spoilers below about Edwin and Dynaheir.

Booinyoureyes' poll on NPC mages (here) inspired the following for me:

Note to self: One day make a BGEE run using all the NPC mages. It might be enjoyable to use Edwin, Xan, Xzar, Dynaheir, and Neera while playing... I dunno, an Illusionist? I would play it such that each wizard would use only his or her own specialization school spells (and wands as such, i.e., only Dynaheir uses Fire wands, only Xan wields Sleep wands, etc.). This means too that Neera relies exclusively on the two spellshaping spells that Wild Mages get.

The lack of priest and thieving skills pose a bit of a pain. But that just means using lots of healing potions and healing at temples; and creatively buffing the party member that gets tapped to trigger traps (Xzar?) where they can't be avoided (I guess I would metagame traps...). Strategy-wise Edwin would be conjuring monsters for the party's front line (maybe Xzar as well by the end of the game if he gets level 5 spells).

I've never tried having Edwin and Dyna in the same party. Is it possible? Can the fight be avoided? Or if played out simply resurrect the slain one?

Necomancer

Not to be a buzzkill but I'm pretty certain Edwin and Drynaheir will not work together. That being said this would be extremely hard at low levels but insanely strong at higher ones. Personaly, I'd take this idea to the black pits and just use a bunch of characters I made myself then see how long they survive.

That being said, if you do do this I expect at least one update about how gloriously/horribly you advance.

Heindrich

@Lemernis

If I remember correctly, when Jaheira and Khalid killed Xzar and Montaron in my BG EE playthrough, the latter were removed from the party, and their bodies were left in the streets of Beregost for the rest of my playthrough. So no, I don't think you can resurrect somebody who dies in a intra-party conflict.

FinneousPJ

I think I heard somewhere it is possible if you rescue Dynaheir before talking to Edwin.

Lemernis

@Heindrich, assuming that it is Dyna who falls I wonder if I could just CLUA her back into the game, though... And I wonder if there is some creative way to avoid the triggering conversation.

@Necomancer I actually did something very much like this many years ago using a custom party of six. However in addition two four specialists (Conjurer, Necromancer, Enchanter, and Illusionist) I also used a Mage/Thief and a Cleric. Even so, they all relied their magic for combat. The cleric was physically weak with low Con, and only spellcasted or slung stones; the Mage/Thief also didn't melee (spells or the bow). It was a total nailbiter early on; although by chapter 4 they were handling most everything without much trouble. So I know it will be fun. Not sure when I'll ever get to it, unfortunately.

Lemernis

FinneousPJ said:

I think I heard somewhere it is possible if you rescue Dynaheir before talking to Edwin.

Yeah, I think I recall something similar. I guess I can Google it.

Addendum: Okay this thread

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/4427/memory-loss-possible-to-recruit-both-minsc-dynaheir-and-edwin-in-bg1-ee

includes the following by @Syntia13:

I remember one playthrough where I searched for Dynaheir on Edwin's request. When I found her she started to thank me, then noticed Eddie peaking over the edge of the well and, in a very dignified manner, she asked me if she was to die after all. I said, nope, no way. Edwin threw a fit, then grudgingly decided to still tag along with us to, yes, to keep an eye on the witch it was I think. Later on we encountered Minsc, who was overjoyed to see his witch, and immediately asked who where those ruffians (my party) surrounding her, and if they required any righteous butt kicking. Dynaheir told him to be quite and come along like a good boy, and we all lived happily ever after. (Weeeeell... until we all died messily in a bandid camp shortly thereafter. Those cold arrows, such mean weapons they were... ;P ).

But I can avoid Minsc (or even just Ctrl+Y him). So it sounds like it might be doable. Although I would have thought that Edwin would bail from the party if you don't kill Dyna as agreed with him earlier.

FinneousPJ

@Lemernis Sounds like something a high CHA PC could pull off.

Lemernis

If you a) complete Minsc's quest first (i.e., before adding Edwin) and then get rid of Minsc (park him in a building alone or Ctrl+Y), then b) add Edwin with Dyna right there, I wonder how that goes?

Also, is it possible to interrupt the row that develops later when it first begins?

And I think I have read also that if the feuding characters fight and one simply knocks the other out, then after waking up everything is hunky dory afterward.

FinneousPJ

Maybe you should test it with console commands before starting the game for reals.

Lemernis

Yeah, that would be wise, agree.

ChildofBhaal599

As a thief suggestion just make charname a gnome thief/illusionist

recklessheart

Ally with Minsc, rescue Dynaheir, and only after you have both of them securely in your party speak to Edwin: seeing that Dynaheir and Minsc are reunited, he will drop his quest, but try to insist you take him in the party too so he can keep an eye on her. Doing this, you can have all three in the group. It absolutely requires that you don't speak to Edwin once before rescuing Dynaheir, though, so be sure not to!

Wanderon

I did an all mage type run that I got as far as BG City back in 2003 but it was a multi/solo group with 3 PCs (M-Half-elf Conjurer leader, F- Elf - mage/thief, & F Gnome cleric/illusionist) with Edwin, Xzar, & Xan . It was great fun as I recall and required some shifting of tactics early on (and considerable use of an un-nerfed Algernons Cloak) - but became immensely powerful by the time they reached BG City - few could stand to the onslaught of 6 casters. (Perhaps this was why I abandoned them there)

(There are still some journals of their exploits on my old forums here:

http://wanderonswarrens.yuku.com/topic/575/BG1-Chapter-3 )

Lemernis

@recklessheeart, Thanks! I dimly recall that that sounds right... but no fight erupts later?

Lemernis

@Wanderon, Yeah actually I'm recalling now in my own game that, surprisingly, it almost became like shooting fish in a barrel even by the Cloakwood mines. But way fun early on.

Twani

If you have Dyna, Minsc, and Edwin, eventually Minsc and Edwin will fight (with Dyna taking Minsc's side).

But if you have Dyna and Edwin, they won't fight. Without Minsc between them, neither will start a brawl.

So avoid Minsc as much as you can, and you should be able to avoid the Thay/Rasshamen (spelled wrong, I know) brawl. If you bring Minsc with you, no promises. They may start a fight eventually.

bbear

I try a variant of this game in BG2. It's the Mage Specialist Party Challenge.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/22715/a-mage-specialist-party-challenge#latest

In that game, I had mage specialists from 6 different schools and they are limited by casting spells only from their specific school. That game got kind of boring because essentially I was playing a 6 characters sorcerer party.

elminster

Alas poor Quayle. Neera's existence guaranteed he'd be left out of this run

Quartz

elminster said:

Alas poor Quayle. Neera's existence guaranteed he'd be left out of this run

This. Quayle FTW!!

abacus

So Neera and Edwin are compatible in BG1?
Seems odd...

Lemernis

bbear said:

I try a variant of this game in BG2. It's the Mage Specialist Party Challenge.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/22715/a-mage-specialist-party-challenge#latest

In that game, I had mage specialists from 6 different schools and they are limited by casting spells only from their specific school. That game got kind of boring because essentially I was playing a 6 characters sorcerer party.

Yeah, oddly enough limiting the mages to just their specialization school spells becomes repetitive (well, in fact it is repetitive but it starts to feel that way). So ironically the very same feature that made the game so challenging and exciting early on becomes increasingly less fun. Even so, it was still kind of neat to see just how handily six casters can (eventually) take out virtually any enemy even with that self-imposed restriction on spellcasting.

Lemernis

Quartz said:

elminster said:

Alas poor Quayle. Neera's existence guaranteed he'd be left out of this run

This. Quayle FTW!!

Well, the wee folk multis are not specialists, but to broaden it to an all-spellcaster party yes. (I'm a Quayle fan too, I think he's hilarious.)

Also, in a game like this Tiax's special ability of Summon Ghast is great, especially if you have SCS installed and can get him right away. Because then you've got a Ghast to tank for the party once per rest cycle.

Wanderon

Cloak of the wolf becomes a useful item as well for an all mage team in BG1!

Lemernis

abacus said:

So Neera and Edwin are compatible in BG1?
Seems odd...

True! I have yet to have them in the same party. Surely there must be some words between Edwin and Neera about the Thayans who are hounding her.

Lemernis

Wanderon said:

Cloak of the wolf becomes a useful item as well for an all mage team in BG1!

Good eye!

Lemernis

Just as an aside, I have a feeling that this wouldn't be quite as fun for an all-priest party... NPC-wise you could choose from Jaheira, Branwen, Viconia, Yeslick, Faldorn, Quayle, and Tiax.

Or, if creating a multiplayer party you could make them all specialty priest kits, which might be more fun. That would be:

Priest of Talos
Priest of Helm
Priest of Lathander
Totemic Druid
Shapeshifter
Avenger

But I dunno, seems like it might not have the same pizzazz as using just specialist mages. Anyhoo.

abacus

Lemernis said:

Just as an aside, I have a feeling that this wouldn't be quite as fun for an all-priest party... NPC-wise you could choose from Jaheira, Branwen, Viconia, Yeslick, Faldorn, Quayle, and Tiax.

Or, if creating a multiplayer party you could make them all specialty priest kits, which might be more fun. That would be:

Priest of Talos
Priest of Helm
Priest of Lathander
Totemic Druid
Shapeshifter
Avenger

But I dunno, seems like it might not have the same pizzazz as using just specialist mages. Anyhoo.

Can't really see Lathander and Talos getting along...
I did once begin a themed all PC multiplayer game with a weakling priest of Lathander, his bodyguards (Cavalier, Inquisitor & Undead Hunter), a scout (Stalker) and their chronicler (Skald)... But it was too melee heavy to be interesting... I like master-caster-blasters!

KidCarnival

Lemernis said:

abacus said:

So Neera and Edwin are compatible in BG1?
Seems odd...

True! I have yet to have them in the same party. Surely there must be some words between Edwin and Neera about the Thayans who are hounding her.

Sadly not. Sorry for the spoiler, but this was a massive disappointment. I took Neera along for the sole purpose of seeing Edwin's reaction to facing Ekandor and a distant hope there'd be an option to side with Ekandor. Nada, nothing. Sad beholder.

Dynaheir and Edwin will not fight. It's Minsc who attacks Edwin and triggers the fight. If you plan to take no non-mage NPCs at any point: Rescue Dynaheir without talking to Minsc or Edwin. She'll join and ask you to bring her to Minsc, but it's not an actual quest. You can then talk to Edwin and get him to join. You can kill Minsc, ignore him, have him join and then lock him in the garrison... Doesn't matter. No Minsc, no fight between Edwin and Dynaheir.

Sidenote: I'd find this more interesting with Quayle instead of Neera because he has a forbidden school like all others. Can always make charname a wild mage for the randomness.

Wanderon

Wouldn't it be interesting if a wild mage sometimes spontaneously spawned a relatively large area of wild magic that would effect any caster (friend or foe) within the area for x amount of time?

CrevsDaak

Thinking of an all-mages party reminded me of how difficult is to kill Golems without fighters :P but you can kill Golems with a wizard too, just use the Rod of Golem Smiting (I have a feeling that I didn't recall the name correctly) or Tenser's Transformation + Stoneskin + PfMW + Imrpoved Haste + Blur + Mirror Image + Ghost Armor + Melf's Minute Meteors you can also take them easily.
Of course golems (there are only Flesh Golems) in BG1 won't cause much trouble, just try to run and use Darts of Wounding.

Lemernis

@CrevsDaak re: flesh golems in BGEE, I would think Blind should also make easy pickens' of 'em. I would guess that Hold Person should work as well (they're humanoid and not a giant race; but I'm unsure if they count as Undead), or a Wand of Paralyzation. Slow could probably work also. And there is always Polymorph Other (either via spell or the wand of same).

Does Ray of Enfeeblement work on them?