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Wow... Just wow.

ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/child-gunned-cop-answering-door-holding-wii-controler/#axzz2tyjjL99c

So THIS had to happen. Because "fuck you, I'm the police, that's why".
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Comments

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    That is actually one of my favorite websites (the person who runs it is a pretty cool dude who does a lot of work on RT and online). I read it often and enjoy a lot of the content.

    However I am loath to blame the police in general for the bad actions of individual officers. People who are trusted with power by the state should certainly be held to a higher standard and bad actors should be reprimanded severely (in this case with possible criminal prosecution depending on further investigations into the detail of what actually happened) but I think people are a little too quick to take one individual incident as representative of the norm, particularly when it comes to law enforcement.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    My comment wasn't directed to the police in general. It was directed to that child-murderer of a cop that thought that just because she was of the police, she thought she could just draw a gun and shoot someone with no second thought.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited February 2014
    I agree with you there (if the evidence shows that to be the case. So far it does seem very sketchy on her part but it could be an honest mistake with the controller)
    Do you read The Libertarian Republic regularly? I like how it is more lighthearted than most similar types of sources.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    Actually, no. But I am subscribed to a game reviewer/journalist on Youtube and he made a video about it.
    I researched it and apparently he's right.

    He's called AlphaOmegaSin. Also a metalhead.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    This is because of the bad government, ANARCHISM!!
    (sorry, I HAD to say this, I'm joking only)

    This sounds like an example of a Lawful Stupid... shoot first, questions later :l or the example of a Chaotic Evil person trying-to-be a cop?
    I agree with Boo again, there are policemen that are very good persons that just keep order and safety, but then there's something called corruption and... well, this happens.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Yeah, I'm very skeptical of giving the state too much power (classic American attitude, lol) especially when it comes to the "permanent" (unelected) parts of the government, but I do think that good law enforcement when it comes to violent crimes is one of the reasons why we do need a government (hence why I am not a chaotic neutral anarchist like Crevs!)
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    Like I said, I have nothing against the police, in general.
    But once in a while, a cretin like that stupid cow comes in and screws up everything.

    She should be relieved of all duty of the police, sent to jail for killing in cold blood an unarmed boy civilian and the police should apologize publicly for it.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    @booinyoureyes I'm not anarchist just a capitalism hater and an imperialist... :P
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Again, it could have been a horrible mistake with the controller.
    The real policy that causes problems with law enforcement is "no-knock raids" where they try to catch suspects by surprised while armed. It is a safety precaution in case the suspects violently resist arrest (which is a legitimate argument) but at the same time it has led to a lot of unjustified killings of innocent suspects.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    CrevsDaak said:

    @booinyoureyes I'm not anarchist just a capitalism hater and an imperialist... :P

    @CrevsDaak funnily enough, most "anarchists" that I know are anarcho-capitalists and fiercely anti-imperialist!

    You guys should like...fight or something
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    @booinyoureyes who should fight? I've told you, I'm not anarchist, just democracy is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too corrupted for my likings, empires are an easy way of government, most of the times an empire was used it was in the wrong moment, an empire is good to form a nation, but not to keep it together for a long time, but if it's a short period when you need to make the society advance faster it's very convenient, actually there are many countries that will benefit from a very well ruled empire, see how fast the Carolingian empire created a nation, the error was to create state-like provinces.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    @CrevsDaak I assume (judging from what you said and the example you gave) you are using "Empire" as a term for a regime that allows for no opposition and represses dissent rather than an expansionist government. However, in either case, I'd have to ask about the following:
    CrevsDaak said:

    an empire is good to form a nation

    good for who?
    CrevsDaak said:

    many countries that will benefit from a very well ruled empire

    It would certainly not be beneficial for every citizen or the entire country, even if it is for the majority of the population (very subjective measurement being used anyway). Would the people who opposed the regime benefit? Would people who have their lives overturned during hte change benefit? Also which countries would you give as examples?
    CrevsDaak said:

    it's a short period when you need to make the society advance faster it's very convenient

    What you consider to be "advancement" is not always what others would. No one is infitely wise. Most imperialists used similar "White Man's Burden" justifications (we must "Christianize" the savages, the locals are misusing natural resources that we would use to better their lives and ours, etc.). Usually this resulted in a lot of destruction and violence that ended up benefiting only the destroyers and maybe/possibly/sometimes future generations (though hardly a good trade-off for the victims of the violence)
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    *sigh...* I wish the U.S. wasn't so darn trigger-happy. :(
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited February 2014
    @Heindrich While some strange people do think that guns are "good for society" and are enthusiastic about weapons, the majority of people who are in favor of freedom to own a firearm view it more as a necessary evil and a way to defend ones self in a situation that is far from ideal.
    In simpler terms, here in the States the thought that "everybody should own a gun" is uncommon and not in the mainstream, but the idea that "You and I should be able to own a gun because others might posses a weapon with intent to do harm" is the more commonly held position.
    I think that the fact that some people think "many Americans think guns are good for society" is actually a better example of sensationalist journalism than what you mentioned. That is not a commonly held belief, but something that many in the media like to discuss (most of the debates on the big four networks involve two different extremists screaming at eachother). What is shown in these cases is not what is depicted by polling data, and if you ask most Americans (would be anecdotal evidence, of course) the message you would receive would be that most people here are not happy with the prevalence of weapons in society, even if they are for the freedom to own firearms or own one themselves.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited February 2014
    @booinyoureyes
    I could probably have worded what I said better. But my point is precisely that so many Americans believe that "I should be able to own a gun because others might posses a weapon with intent to do harm", which, for somebody with very much a British/European attitude on the issue, I find absolutely insane, and find it hard to believe how an entire society can be led to hold such attitudes so widely.

    If firearms were generally less accessible, then there would be less firearm related incidents. That is common sense and logic. If there were less people walking around with guns, you would feel less incentivised to carry a gun as a precaution.

    Yes violent criminals will find a way to arm themselves as best as they can, but that's what trained specialist firearms officers are for.

    Imagine if (it will never happen) a law was passed that confiscated most guns from American civilians, except those with a legitimate reason to own firearms, like sportsmen, then there would be much fewer guns in circulation, and thus normal police officers would not need to expect to encounter firearms in every incident, and thus would not need to carry guns themselves.

    There has been an 'arms race' within American society, where the equivalent of broken bottles, baseball bats and knives in other countries, are firearms in the US. This means that lots of incidents that would result in minor injuries elsewhere results in serious injury and death in the US.

    Britain has a knife problem in some big cities, but generally, it's much harder to kill somebody with a knife than with a gun, and it's certainly harder to kill somebody accidentally with a knife than a gun.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @Heindroch Whoa, are you implying free media is a bad thing?
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Reminds me of a joke I heard from a stand-up comic a few years ago (Al Murray). To paraphrase:

    "The British Police don't carry guns. This makes them the most dedicated police in the world. There are no shortcuts.

    If they want to unlawfully kill someone they need to beat them to death, and that takes a lot of effort."

    (I do not necessarily endorse this view, but find the deflation of expections amusing. Most cops I've met are decent people, but the British force has had a load of cock-ups, corruption and unlawful shootings of late.)
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251

    Whoa, are you implying free media is a bad thing?

    That's not how I read it at all. I believe @Heindrich is implying that U.S. media is not free, but in fact bought and paid for. As an ex-journalist for a major media company, I can tell you he's absolutely right.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited February 2014

    @Heindroch Whoa, are you implying free media is a bad thing?

    @FinneousPJ
    No, but I am pointing out that it is not the holy grail that most Westerners think that it is, and 'seemingly free' media rarely is truly free.

    I elaborate on some of my misgivings in the following comment:
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/361643

    Edit:
    And in that comment, I was just referring to the culture of so-called free media, but what is really 'commercial media'. I didn't even touch on the even more questionable issue of interest-group sponsored media.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    @booinyoureyes an empire is a good way to have an entire nation under control for a short period of time, accept it or not, this won't change, the Romans used it this way for some time, during crisis or wars, and it worked mostly.

    My country could benefit from an empire immensely, no more corrupt fools to care of, no more bad tries in economy, I know that other countries won't benefit from this, but some others will.


    It would certainly not be beneficial for every citizen or the entire country, even if it is for the majority of the population (very subjective measurement being used anyway). Would the people who opposed the regime benefit? Would people who have their lives overturned during hte change benefit? Also which countries would you give as examples?

    Sometimes you need to care about the country and not about some citizens, I am sure that no one will like it, but some moments you need effectiveness, not happiness. Right now my country is lacking BOTH, so... It will help a lot if someone that knows what he does takes place as an emperor.



    What you consider to be "advancement" is not always what others would. No one is infitely wise. Most imperialists used similar "White Man's Burden" justifications (we must "Christianize" the savages, the locals are misusing natural resources that we would use to better their lives and ours, etc.). Usually this resulted in a lot of destruction and violence that ended up benefiting only the destroyers and maybe/possibly/sometimes future generations (though hardly a good trade-off for the victims of the violence)

    Look, evangelization isn't an advancement for a government, it's for the religion, most governments that are religious try to expand their religion, I didn't talk about military expansion also... I was talking about economical and political advancements, maybe even technological and cultural, but not expand the territory.

    This is a pointless debate, so I don't think I'll continue it.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited February 2014
    @Heindrich I agree with most of what you are saying, but the following seems a bit off to me
    Heindrich said:


    Imagine if (it will never happen) a law was passed that confiscated most guns from American civilians, except those with a legitimate reason to own firearms, like sportsmen, then there would be much fewer guns in circulation, and thus normal police officers would not need to expect to encounter firearms in every incident, and thus would not need to carry guns themselves.

    I think it is crazy to think that sport is a more "legitimate reason to own a firearm" than self defense.

    The idea of limiting the amount in circulation by criminalizing the item is something I find to be a bit misguided (though well-meaning). Many things can be misused and lead to horrible consequences. People who drive inebriated often cause injury and death, yet alcohol is not banned. Driving intoxicated is.

    There are often cases where criminalizing an item leads to horrible unintended consequences. For example, drug policy in the States is very similar to the plan to combat gun violence that you proposed. I have never used a single drug in my life, and would much prefer of others did not, but when you look at the results of the "War on Drugs" you find that the negative consequences far outweigh any possible benefits. Drug market altercations are actually the biggest contributor to violent crime statistics in the States. When someone attempts to purchase a drug (obviously misguided, but not intending to harm anyone other than themselves) they are forced to deal with a criminal element that is willing to defend its drug trade with violence. Much like alcohol prohibition led to massive increases in organized criminal activity in the US in the 1920s, the prohibition of drugs have contributed to the formation of the Cartels and most notably for Americans, gang culture in urban locations.

    And with all this violence, what have been the positives? There has been no change in drug addiction in the 40 years since the War on Drugs began in the 70s, while drug use is actually more common.

    If the underground trade in drugs causes this level of violence with so little benefit, imagine what the black market in objects that are designed for making violence convenient may bring. I think the cause of reducing violence and addiction is very noble, but the results of these kind of policies, no matter what is benign criminalized, may not be what the well-meaning people who design them expect.
    Post edited by booinyoureyes on
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    @FinneousPJ and @Heindrich I think that the internet is steadily reducing the level of commercialism in the media, though the amount of misinformation out there makes for different problems.

    It is actually quite similar to the result of Chinese censorship that Heindrich mentioned in the post he linked to about people not trusting the source (though the cause of this would be very different)
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited February 2014
    hey @CrevsDaak ! Since we are veering slightly off topic I will put this in spioler tags

    [spoiler]
    CrevsDaak said:

    @booinyoureyes an empire is a good way to have an entire nation under control for a short period of time, accept it or not, this won't change, the Romans used it this way for some time, during crisis or wars, and it worked mostly.

    My country could benefit from an empire immensely, no more corrupt fools to care of, no more bad tries in economy, I know that other countries won't benefit from this, but some others will.

    You may think your country would benefit, until the corrupt fools get more power with less accountability and have unrestrained control over the economy. What you described as a problem here would most likely be exasperated in a less limited and less democratic system. Also the Roman Empire that you are referencing had problems far greater than any Argentina face today, and this should not be overlooked.
    CrevsDaak said:


    Sometimes you need to care about the country and not about some citizens, I am sure that no one will like it, but some moments you need effectiveness, not happiness. Right now my country is lacking BOTH, so... It will help a lot if someone that knows what he does takes place as an emperor.

    For one, is "effectiveness" a goal or a means to achieve "happiness"? Most people accept a government's authority because it is a promise to keep them safe. If the government is causing people to be unhappy and decreasing the quality of their lives, then it is the problem, not the solution, and will quickly lose its legitimacy in the eyes of the population.
    The idea of getting "someone who knows what they are doing" as an emperor is very scary.
    A. no one is capable of planning for an entire society all by themselves without limitations since they simply don't understand the desires of the citizens as well as the citizens do themselves.
    B. Who is to say who is a person who "knows what they are doing"? You? Me? I wouldn't trust myself in a position with such absolute power, why would I trust anyone else?
    C. Even if we were to magically find a perfect leader, how would he deal with opposition during his rise to power? Is violence worth it

    also it is easy to say that the well-being of some should be sacrificed for the "country"... unless you become the "some". Civilizations are made of many small groups of likeminded people of various sizes. Favoring one or the other is not very just imho.
    CrevsDaak said:

    I didn't talk about military expansion also... I was talking about economical and political advancements, maybe even technological and cultural, but not expand the territory.

    Even then, in a totalitarian system technological, economical "developments" would all involve some level of violence.
    [/spoiler]
    Finally... these issues are not resolved on video game forums, but that does not mean discussions are pointless!
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    edited February 2014
    Heindrich said:

    Britain has a knife problem in some big cities, but generally, it's much harder to kill somebody with a knife than with a gun, and it's certainly harder to kill somebody accidentally with a knife than a gun.

    This. It's the main reason I hate guns.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited February 2014
    @corvino Very interesting response, and I agree with some of what you said. :)

    I can't really see how freedom and morality can *not* be part of this discussion. The differences between arresting someone for doing something that hurts another human being and arresting someone for owning an object are vast, and definitely part of the discussion.

    I agree with you that background checks and ensuring that gun owners have no history of mental health problems is very reasonable. I think that bans are a different story.

    Also, the UK and the US are not the same situation. It's important to note that unlike in the UK guns are already very common here in the US (just as drugs were when the War on Drugs was beginning). The leval at which some people assume that gun restrictions would reduce the overall number of firearms in the States is a bit fanciful, particularly in a country that shares one of the world's largest borders with another nation that has an absolutely astounding level of gun violence.
    Also important is the size of the United States coupled with the fact that statistics show that gun violence is significantly more common in urban areas. The United States has one of the highest urban population ratios in the world. In fact, levels of gun ownership in the most rural areas of the States is far higher than in the urban areas, yet levels of gun violence are significantly lower (though the gun restrictions in urban states is in may cases a response to the increase in gun violence).
    Finally looking at guns as the only contributing factor to gun-related deaths is very limiting. In the United States we have one of the most expansive drug war programs in the world, and the number one incident of gun-related death is gang violence and the drug trade. That is a significant difference between the United States and the UK that heavily contributes to the statistics you cited.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Gang violence linked to drugs is a bit of a universal. @Heindrich mentioned that there is significant knife crime in the UK and this somewhat takes the role here of gun crime in the US. It's more likely to be urban, and is often linked to either gangs or robbery.

    As you say though @booinyoureyes, there are significant cultural differences. In the US there is a commonly-held cultural ideal of pioneers or rugged individualists which doesn't really translate in the UK. Many US role models, folk heroes and historical figures of the past 200 years have been soldiers, lawmen, frontiersman or similar, and so have an association with firearms. Even today military service is a major campaign booster in presidential elections. There is also a strong tradition of hunting which doesn't really exist in the UK - only the very upper-class have hunted here for centuries. Guns have only been in the hands of the aristocracy, some farmers or the military for a long time.

    It may well be that these cultural differences allowed the UK government to pass more restrictive gun laws years ago, while a number of issues around assault weapons in the US have been allowed to lapse due to lack of public support. I don't mean to paint the UK as a model of enlightenment by any means, but we do comparatively well in terms of gun crime. We still have our share of controversial police shootings (Jean Charles de Menezes, Mark Duggan) but overall numbers are low.
  • megalic30megalic30 Member Posts: 3
    As an American I do find our gun laws to be outdated. Original they were put in so we could rise up against our government should we need to ((sort of what we did with England. Hi England how you doing there bud. Your not still mad are ya?)) Today that concept seems just silly. There are better ways to assert our rights rather than trying to kill those in charge.

    But there are many factors why Guns will never be band in America

    1. Tradition. We have always had guns. They helped us not have to pay taxes (I mean) “gain our freedom” from England. In pioneer times they were essential tool for survival. Our grandparents owned guns, there grandparents, and so on. The idea that what was ok back then is not ok now is hard for people to understand.

    2. Guns make you feel safe. This doesn't mean they make your home safer. Statistics show that you are more likely to shot a love one than an actual intruder but some people feel safer with a gun in the house. It gives them power they normally would not have.

    3. And most importantly Money. There is a lot of money being made in the production and sale of guns. If it became illegal for the majority of the population to own guns there would be a lot of people out of business. If people were not making so much money off gun sales America would have stricter gun laws and this wouldn't be an issue.

    Most don't talk (or don't know) about the economic factor but I feel it is a big reason why we have not changed or enforced many gun laws. You'll notice that anything that will put a dent in big business pocket books is slow to change. Just look at our health care policies.

    ((note: I went to a gun range once and shot a few rounds. It was fun and I may do it again some day.))
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