1st Time playing The Temple of Elemental Evil
Wandering_Minstrel
Member Posts: 197
in Off-Topic
I acquired TTOEE some time ago and was thinking about playing it for the first time. I would appreciate all the help / advice I can get. I want to play a LG party (LG, NG, LN) including a paladin. I do not want to choose any classes that are pretty much pointless. I also want to keep all my characters single class (not keen on multi classing). I am not that familiar with 3.x and a bit intimidated by it which is why I have not played this as well as the NWN games and IWD2. There are skills and feats to choose from, also choosing a god to follow... I have the CO8 mod downloaded. Should I choose standard or new content?
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There's also crafting for making your own equipment later on.
As for skills and feats... It really depends on what kind of character you want to build. Choosing Power Attack and Cleave is pretty useful for melee fighter types, including Paladins.
You could do worse than a good old fashioned fighter as the extra feats can really help, especially if they have a reach weapon with cleave.
Also Co8 is a must have mod, just for the bug fixes so it shouldn't be considered by anyone if they want to install it or not, even if they don't care for the new content.
About the party, you want the Paladin, a Rogue, a Cleric, a Wizard or Sorcerer (Wizard for the skills, versatility and crafting and Sorcerer for pure power) and a Druid.
I consider Druids MUST-haves in 3.5E. They got a significant power boost and are by far the best 5th party member.
A Druid can provide buffing, damaging, heals, summons (especially with the Augment Summoning feat and an animal companion that serves as another party member that is free and doesn't need equipment.
And also provides various skills and Wild Shape to serve as a second tank or melee member.
Also, you don't need to worry about weapon types. A Paladin is automatically proficient with Simple and Martial weapons and you might want to get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) to get all the nice weapon types for him.
Also you don't need to worry about magic weapons since you can just cast Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon on any weapon to make it magical.
I wouldn't bother with the Weapon Focus feats for the Paladin or any class as well. It's only a +1 to attack with a specific weapon for a feat, which are precious and limited.
Also don't bother with multiclassing. A Paladin, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard and Druid are best kept pure except 1-2 dips in Fighter for example for the feats and proficiencies.
Try to put different skills for different characters. Give the Paladin Diplomacy for example and Bluff to the Rogue or maybe intimidate.
In general, have diversity with your characters and no overlapping.
Later, you can get even more companions though you have all bases covered with the party setup I proposed.
Druids are also a good choice to take the feat Craft wondrous item at level 9 and make you a bunch of great items. Crafting items is pretty OP in the game, you might want your mage to get the same feat so you can craft almost all of them.
For a paladin it can actually be useful to start off as a fighter. I know you don't like multiclasses, but it's simple. Go fighter to level 4 for a load of bonus feats, then switch to Paladin. As a word of warning - your Paladin can fall if you make morally dubious choices. You cannot have evil party members and even a drinking contest can make you lose your paladinhood. Diplomacy and sense motive are probably the best social skills to pick up, but intimidate can be useful.
I'd argue that rogues can also benefit from a couple of fighter levels, especially melee rogues who need weapon finesse and two-weapon fighting to work properly, and bonus feats and some fighter Base Attack Bonus go a long way here. Having a rogue take fighter levels at 3 and 5 means you get all the trapfinding and lockpicking you need with a bit more punch. If you stay single-class rogue then a bow is a better choice. In 3.5 a rogue needs Dex, but Int is important too. It gives you bonus skillpoints, allowing your rogue to cover all bases.
General tips:
For feats - power attack & cleave for fighters/barbarians/paladins. Improved initiative and combat casting for casters. Point blank shot & Precise shot for archers.
Reach weapons (Longspears, Glaives, Guisarmes etc) can be very effective coupled with Combat reflexes. Any time anyone moves near you you'll get an attack of opportunity.
Know your cleric domains. Sun = Greater turning (autokill a lot of undead), Good = Holy smite, War = weapon focus (your deity's weapon), Healing = bonus healing spell slots, Earth = Stoneskin at higher levels. Having Pelor as your god with Good and Sun domains will make you an evil-smiting, undead busting menace. Heironomous is another solid good-aligned god. Never forget that good clerics can turn any memorised spell into a healing spell of the same level by holding shift in the radial menu.
Utilise disabling spells when you can. Grease, Sleep, Entangle, Glitterdust & etc can be highly effective.
There's a good fighter called Elmo you can get in the first village. He starts at level 4 with a magic axe and armour. He'll take half the gold you loot, but no items so he's pretty worth it. Good stats, decent feats too.
Definitely get the CO8 mod with new content. Talk to the blacksmith in Hommlet to get access to the early stuff.
*edit* Oh, and humans are a surprisingly good choice of race for most classes. You get an extra feat at first level and an extra skillpoint every level. That bonus feat is pretty useful.
Also, you should have a "face" character or two. Paladins are a good choice. Get Diplomacy and Sense motive maxed out, and Intimidate if you have points spare. Giving your rogue a high appraise item skill and getting them to do all your buying & selling is good too.
Thank you for all the advice. I will start up a game soon. I loaded up Circle of Eight just now and examined all the options: Game relolution (including some widescreen modes), windowed mode (which I will never use), Max HP for NPCs (from levels), Max HP for NPCs (from HD), Show exact HP for NPCs, Max HP per level, Humble NPCs (greyed out and a check mark next to it), LEvel Cap (default 20), Max number of players in party (ranges from 3 PCs and 5 NPCs to 8 PCs and 0 NPCs; I might choose the 8 playable characters. I cover more classes that way even though it will take longer for them to level up. Are there any NPC quests? Which option would you guys suggest?), Delayed Blast Fireball Delay (ranges from 0 turns to 5 turns, default at 1 turn), and Random Number Generator - Mersenne Twister (official and default), Quick and Dirty (original).
If you roll and reroll, you want 18 STR, 14-18 CON, 12 for Fighters/10-12 for Paladins, 12-16 for Barbarians.
For Fighters you can dump CHA and maybe WIS (but not below 10 for WIS), keep a 14 on INT you don't need more, and 8-10 CHA.
For Paladins 14-18 STR, 10-12 DEX, 14 CON at least, 10 INT, 12-14 to get full access to their spells but you're not seeing 4th level spells on a Paladin) and 16-18 CHA.
In 3.5E, armors have a DEX cap so you can't pump DEX as high as possible and get the maximum dexterity bonus with any armor.
For example a Full Plate (Heavy Armor) gives you 8 Armor and 1 DEX AC. Which means if you have a DEX modifier of 1 (12 DEX) then you can get all the bonus from it.
A Breastplate (medium armor) is 5-3. Which means just the armor gives you 5 AC but if you have high DEX (16 DEX for a +3 modifier) then you make most use of it. Useful to Barbarians that don't have Heavy Armor proficiency.
For a Cleric you want 14 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 16-18 WIS, 14-16 CHA. With WIS, CON, STR, CHA, DEX, in order of importance.
With a Druid you can put less in CHA and more in DEX or CON or WIS or INT.
Also at level 5 you get Wild Shape which makes your physical stats less important because at 6th level you should get Natural Spell to cast in shapes.
But until then you need to survive in Medium and non-metal Armor. I'm not sure if Druids need to Atone if they were metal armor. That's how it works in PnP.
So that means Hide Armor for the Druid which is 3-4. 3 Armor and 4 DEX, so you need 14-18 to make some use of it.
With an Elf, you can dump STR a bit more and fight at range with your companion, summons and spells, later Wild Shape helps you.
Also Clerics and Druid don't have to use restricted weapons, so with an Elf you get Longbow proficiency which is better than the default Sling.
A Cleric with the War Domain of a War Deity gets you the proficiency and Weapon Focus of the god's. So if they have Longsword as favored weapon, they get the proficiency and Weapon Focus (+1 to attack) with a Longsword for free. That's a nice free bonus.
Humans as @Corvino suggested are one of the best races because they give two bonuses (extra feat and more skill points) but no drawbacks. But they don't get a bonus to their ability score like other races.
Also Half-Elves suck.
Dwarves are quite good for classes with Heavy Armor because of their CON bonus and their bonuses. They make great Fighters and Clerics. Maybe Druids too.
For a Wizard like BG, you want INT, CON/DEX. More AC vs more HP. You can dump CHA and STR safely. Maybe Wisdom too.
For Rogues, you want the highest at DEX, next INT for skill points, then CON, then CHA and STR and WIS.
At level 3 you can get Weapon Finesse which is Dex mod to attack. (So someone with 18 DEX gets a +4 to attack with lighter weapons and Weapon Finesse.)
And I also suggest you play a Fighter at first because a Paladin unlike BG can be very restrictive and you need to be careful.
For spells, summons are always good and you get them at every spell level with the Cleric, Wizard AND Druid. Druid is the best at summoning because they can cast without preparation.
So it's always a good idea to have various summons.
I'm not sure of the exact spell list and implementation but at around level 5 you're getting Greater Magic Weapon and you get the simple Magic Weapon at levels 1 with both Cleric and Wizard, I think.
It makes any weapon into a +1 for 1 hour/level.
You can figure them out as you go as Clerics, Druids and Wizard are prepared casters so you can experiment.
The reason Paladins should have at least 14 Wis is that casters only get to cast spells of spell levels depending on their main casting stat (which is Wis for Clerics, Paladins and Druids; Int for Wizards; and Cha for Sorcerers. IIRC). To cast spells of a certain spell level your Wis has to equal (Spell Level + 10), or to put it more direct - you need a Wis score of 11 to cast level 1 spells, 12 to cast level 2 spells, 13 to cast level 3 spells, and so on. The reason Pallies only need 14 Wis is that they can cast level 4 spells at most. Since you'll be able to increase the score as you go, or craft your own Wis-increasing items, it's not really necessary to start out with 14 Wis, but I wouldn't go below 12.
And for the new posts since then: I'm pretty sure companions no longer steals all your stuff with the Co8 patch. They didn't for me, anyway. Thank god.
At the moment, with the 5 PC configuration I have a paladin, fighter, druid, rogue and sorcerer (things can change, assuming I decide to choose 6, 7 or 8 PCs). ... Or instead of the fighter and paladin I can have a fighter go up a few levels, then become a paladin (sort of like the fighter -> paladin in the Hero's Quest / Quest for Glory games but since it is not D&D everything builds differently).
How much the various NPCs interact in regards to quests/locations/each other varies quite a bit.
Barbarian 2/Fighter X is an interesting build too. You gain fast movement, a few extra HP and Uncanny Dodge in exchange for 2 feats. By the midgame with a fighter you're often swimming in feats anyway.
As for party numbers - 5 is fine, but so is 6. It's best to leave at least one spare party spot for quest NPCs (there are a couple). I'd recommend a cleric in any given party for all the extra healing they can put out as well as a decent secondary tank (Though druids and bards are both competent healers). There is now an NPC cleric available in Hommlet early on as part of the Co8 modpack.
I may try out having 6 or 7 PCs and have one slot for the NPC quest. If there is a time where I need more than one NPC at a time for a quest please let me know so I can plan accordingly.
I have CO8 version 8.0.0 (new content). I downloaded and installed 8.0.1 patch (I think it is a patch). When I click on add-ons I select the 8.0.1 add on to install. It is supposed to be 1 Mb but it says it takes up 0 MB and I do not see any changes once the process is done. It still reads as 8.0.0.
I can't help with Bards or Monks, but Barbarians are pretty similar to Fighters. Power Attack and Cleave are good early picks, with Combat Reflexes to make the most of medium armour's +3 dexterity bonuses. Sticking on Whirlwind attack if they have a 2-handed or reach weapon is a good idea too, as they'll often have many enemies within range.
I am one step closer in designing my party. Either LG or NG since my main will be a fighter (?) / paladin. And since you guys have been willing to help me and I suck with making up names I am going to name my fellow party members after you. So that is six in all (can change to seven). What are each of your favorite classes? Perhaps I will model them after you (including abilities, feats, skills, spells and god if applicable, etc).
Interesting thing about the party alignment you choose is that it changes what your main quest is... you can actually largely ignore the main quest and the path through the game is very much the same anyway but the various openings are a very nice touch. Some of them are even canonically connected; the LG one starts at the aftermath of the CE one for instance.
I may try every alignment at some point.
One more thing, trolls are right little sh*ts but you don't need fire or acid to kill them. just smack them until they fall over then use coup de grace from the radial menu (but try to avoid at lower levels, they hit hard and often)
I never bothered with them in either or my playthroughs
Ha! Awesome!
Make me the Elven (or whatever, human?) Druid. I love Druids and I am currently playing one in our PnP campaign.
Just remember, summon monsters when possible, you don't have to memorize the Summon Nature's Ally spells for Druids.
Also get the Augment Summoning feat. It gives +2 STR and CON to your summons.
Requires Spell Focus (Conjuration).
Use your animal companion. One that is strong in combat is recommended.
The Druid is the fifth wheel and the class that can cover any spot in your party when needed or support all of them.
Tank/warrior? Wild Shape, Animal Companion, summons.
Healer? They get healing spells and restorative spells, just no Raise Dead.
Scout? They can get the wilderness skills and Spot/Listen to awesomely high levels.
Mage? They get some nice offensive spells.
Buffer? Barkskin and other buffs are awesome.
Archer? Sling or bow, they can do well but not perfect.
Also, instead of Paladin, I would recommend a Fighter with a greatsword, power attack and cleave, then focus and specialize.
In an emergency, pull out a Tower Shield and any other weapon and tank.
Paladins are nice, but can be quite restrictive and you would already have two healers and buffers.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't play one but the Paladin experience is different than the BG games, I think.
And Barbarians/Fighters are much better frontliners and melee damage dealers than Paladins since they can put all their best stats in STR and CON and pretty much ignore the others.
Buff them and watch them destroy stuff in one swing at low levels especially.
Paladins need good WIS and CHA to make most use of their abilities.
You can make your Cleric Lawful Good and play him as Paladin-like, as well. Now to answer that question.
Barbarians are all about pure offense.
STR, CON, DEX in that order, you don't need anything else but for RP reasons you could keep some mental stats at average levels, maybe except charisma.
Half-Orcs are great Barbarians.
Grab a two-handed weapon like greataxe, get power attack and cleave, then Rage (is Extra Rage one of the available feats in ToEE?) and watch the carnage.
For Bards, there are some ways.
You want decent CHA, some INT too (10-14 is good), some DEX (14-16) and average CON (10-14).
They are the support characters. Use them as backup archers and buffers.
You could try making them DEX or STR based I guess but with a balanced party you don't need to.
Monks? Unfortunately Monks kinda suck in 3.5. It's like playing a Monk in BG1. Really weak in the beginning and don't get much stronger later to really stand out.
They should be played as hit and run types. You don't want them on the frontlines. You want them to get in, get a few nice punches and then leave.
Something like STR, CON, DEX/WIS in that order.
For Rangers. I advise making them archers. They're not the two-weapon tanks with druid spells that they were in ADnD.
They're basically the Archer/Stalker kits now. Light Armor and best used as scouts, using bow from a distance and maybe two weapons for melee.
They should be played like Monks. You don't want them in the front.
If I had to make a 6-7 member party including a Paladin I would make:
Paladin, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Fighter, Sorcerer.
Very balanced and very powerful. The Paladin tanks, the Fighter is the main melee damage dealer, the Wizard is casting various spells, the Sorcerer blasts everything.