Role-Playing a Cleric/Thief... a tricky proposition?

abacus

I'm currently plotting a run through with the following folk as company:
Rasaad
Neera
Nalia
Mazzy Fentan
Cernd
All of whom I've either never used, or only used in passing (doing their quests and dropping them). So I want to give them a decent run and get to know them all a lot better.

Obviously, the best charname for this group would be a Cleric/Thief multi... which is also something I've never played before.

My problem is trying to find a character-concept for a C/T, as it's an unusual combination and I like to play my runs with a little RP flavour (or at least a clear concept of who my character is...).

So, let's talk about that, and how someone ends up with both divine support & the capability to pick a lock/pocket and set an effective trip-wire...

*Restriction - I don't want to play evil with this party, so "Talos/Mask told me to steal" won't wash!

Flashburn

EEKeeper yourself into a dwarven cleric/thief and play him off as a priest of Vergadain, the dwarven god of wealth, luck, and non-evil thieves. I've been meaning to do this myself, but the Thievery button getting moved into the Special Abilities tab just bothers me too much.

Fardragon

There are plenty of FR deities whose clerics might learn rogue skills, even if you rule out the evil ones. A few suggestions: Tymora, Brandobaris (halflings), Erevan Ilesere (elves), Baravar Cloakshadow (gnomes).

Or you might try roleplaying a reformed/repentant thief duel class.

abacus

Fardragon said:

Or you might try roleplaying a reformed/repentant thief duel class.

Actually that sounds really good... For a while now I've been kicking around the idea of using a particular in-game situation as an "trigger" for duel-classing... Maybe a fairly happy-go-lucky thief encounters the Unseeing Eye, and realises how important Helm's work is...

mjs

cleric/thieves are great multis, but i don't think the group you propose requires one. you get your healing from Cernd and Nalia is a good enough thief in her right

if anything I think that group needs a more natural tank. the c/t needs a few buffs to tank very well

abacus

Nalia is a joke of a thief... Her skills are too spread around and require a bunch of potions to be effective at anything. She's basically a Mage with thief weapons.
Cleric's and Druids are significantly different, and using either as heal-bots is a waste.

Mazzy's a solid tank (heavy armour, shorty saves & DUHM) and Rasaad will eventually becomes unstoppable.

Lemernis

Here's a Cleric/Thief character concept that I hope one day to develop into a mod, if I ever get the time. And here's another C/T concept courtesy of @Blackraven.

You're right, though! Cleric and Thief don't seem to readily mix together as naturally as a lot of the other class combos.

Neonfisk

Isn't Gond the god of clockwork and stuff like that?
How about a cleric of Gond who learned a lot of mechanical skills in order to remove dangerous contraptions (traps) from the world.

"Thief" is just a name for the class anyway. A set of skills. It is up to you to choose how you use those skills and what you put points in to. The thieves I have used have never really done any thieving that other classes could not do aswell. When I think of the "thief" class I think of a sneaky-stabby-guy-who-removes-traps-and-doors, not someone who steals from people.

Another take on the multiclass could be a cleric in a more inqusitive role. When the church needs to investigate someone for "heresy" (or whatever) a cleric/thief would be way more... polite about it, than one of those smite-everything-paladins who would just destroy the door.

Blackraven

I personally don't see any problem with the cleric/thief combo from a roleplaying perspective.
Any Cleric dual or multi has to be justfied in some way, not only the cleric/thief. This justifying is most easily done by picking a sensible deity. A Cleric/Mage who worships The Red Knight may be harder to roleplay/justify (though not necessarily impossible) than one who worships Mystra.
Sensible deities for a cleric/thief have alredy been mentioned: Tymora (humans), Brandobaris (halflings), Erevan Ilesere (elves), Baravar Cloakshadow (gnomes), Vergadain (dwarves). My cleric/thief worshipped Cyric and was indeed evil, but I understand that Cyric also has CN followers.

Another thing you can keep in mind is the way you interpret the thief class. If you apply a very narrow interpretation, a thief is what they are in everyday language: little more than a burglar or pickpocketer. However you can also consider the thief class as one that offers certain particularly useful skills for he adventuring profession that don't necessarily make for a thief in the narrow sense of the word.
You can see your cleric/thief as a priest who's an investigator who likes to do fieldwork for his deity rather than operate in the controlled enviroment of their temple. To that end the priest has developed various skills that help him function as an explorer/scout/investigator.
All the thief skills fit that profile perfectly... stealth, setting and disarming traps, detecting illsusions, lockpicking not to enrich yourself but rather to gain entrance to buildings you think you need access to, pickpocketing again not to enrich yourself, but rather to retrieve important items or documents for a particular quest/research you're involved in.

If you follow the 'investigator-thief' concept, you'll have an even wider range of Deities your cleric/thief could serve.

@Lemernis: that's a well developed character you've got there! My compliments.

Lemernis

@Blackraven, Yeah that mirrors my own thinking as well, and you articulated it well. Thief class does not have to be a criminal, and there's lots of deities to choose from (Eldarian illustrates just that, and thanks for the compliment about the character.)

Blackraven

@Lemernis, is your Cleric/Thief still in development as a mod? That's what is says on bgthewide.com. Would be very interested to have him along with my party...

mjs

abacus said:

Nalia is a joke of a thief... Her skills are too spread around and require a bunch of potions to be effective at anything. She's basically a Mage with thief weapons.
Cleric's and Druids are significantly different, and using either as heal-bots is a waste.

Mazzy's a solid tank (heavy armour, shorty saves & DUHM) and Rasaad will eventually becomes unstoppable.

one ring, one spell and Nalia is as capable as any other thief in the game. memorise a couple of knock spells, you'll use those potions of mastery thievery you never use and the ring of danger sense (or buy the thievery ring from the bonus merchant) and you have enough in open locks and find traps to deal with any the game throws at you. all you need is find traps and open locks in a thief anyway, unless you want the HLAs

Lemernis

No, it's a stalled project. Don't know if it will ever come to pass, honestly.

I had the story and dialogue for a quest developed years ago, but I still had to study tutorials about how to code the mod, etc. (It's been ages since I've done anything like that, and I'm not a coder--more of a story and dialogue guy.) And now with EE's recoding of the game I have no idea how to proceed. Before I get to that, I still have a mod to keep Yoshimo for the duration of the saga that I need to playtest again and get finalized as a finished project at Gibberlings. RL demands make even that tough right now. But maybe one day well down the road I'll have the time to make the Eldarian mod. I hope so. He's probably the most enjoyable character I've ever played.

Blackraven

I wish I were a coder... maybe I could have helped you out with Eldarian, as well as developing my own mods.

the_spyder

There's a halfling character in one of the Forgotten Realms books who is a Cleric/Thief by the name Jak Fleet. His Deity is Brandobaris and he does a fairly passable goodly/neutral type stab at the combination. He does steal as part of his worship to his deity. In fact, his "holy symbol" has to be something he has stolen from someone within the last month.

I want to say that at one point he discusses his philosophy with another character. I seem to remember it being something like "The Nature of the universe according to Brandobaris is that material wealth gets spread around" or some such. Basically, he isn't stealing for nefarious reasons, but because those with a little too much can stand to lose some and those with not enough can benefit. or maybe I made that up? In any event, his thieving is absolutely woven into his religion, but not in an evil and vindictive way.

But there are loads of philosophies where thieving isn't evil. The random redistribution of wealth is one. Another is "If you can't defend it, you don't deserve it." Still another is "I am proving the weaknesses in your defenses. you are welcome." Or just take a look at Robin hood.

Just some ideas from a character concept perspective.

abacus

mjs said:

abacus said:

Nalia is a joke of a thief... Her skills are too spread around and require a bunch of potions to be effective at anything. She's basically a Mage with thief weapons.
Cleric's and Druids are significantly different, and using either as heal-bots is a waste.

Mazzy's a solid tank (heavy armour, shorty saves & DUHM) and Rasaad will eventually becomes unstoppable.

one ring, one spell and Nalia is as capable as any other thief in the game. memorise a couple of knock spells, you'll use those potions of mastery thievery you never use and the ring of danger sense (or buy the thievery ring from the bonus merchant) and you have enough in open locks and find traps to deal with any the game throws at you. all you need is find traps and open locks in a thief anyway, unless you want the HLAs

Need... Yes, hence the way Imoen is put together, however thieves can offer much more.
Nalia has the lowest possible values for backstabs and traps, and is ridiculously dependent on gear/micro-management.

ReadingRambo

I think shadow dancer cleric oozes flavor, with multiple gods to choose from.

Quartz

mjs said:

cleric/thieves are great multis, but i don't think the group you propose requires one. you get your healing from Cernd and Nalia is a good enough thief in her right

Quartz

mjs said:

cleric/thieves are great multis, but i don't think the group you propose requires one. you get your healing from Cernd and Nalia is a good enough thief in her right