Restartitis made me do it: Dwarven Defender/Mage multi class pretending to be no-cheese

Ygramul

Okay, so I only play no-reload games and only with SCS.
Between all the actual deaths and my restarts I almost never get to finish a game. (Finished BGT some years back with a sorceror and never yet BG2/TOB, not since the murky years when it first came out and when I wasn't so OCD.)

I wanna play the new Dwarven Defender but I cannot ever play a not-mage. So, will the Gods of Cheese punish me if I EEkeeper a DD/mage multi? (Justifying meself that SCS/no-reload is hard.)

Perhaps, if I import enough handicaps, too, via EEkeeper. For example, no range weapons; forbidden schools of magic etc.?

(Oh, and I wanna make Imoen a sorceror through the trilogy.)

Oh, for Clangeddin's pink beard! I need help.

mumumomo

Frankly it's not that cheesy. The damage reduction is anyway rather pointless when you can cast mirror image, stoneskin and PFMW.
A berseker/mage dual or a fighter/illusionnist are probably as cheesy if not even more.
And they are "legit". So i would go ahead with your dwarven defender/mage with no afterthought

Blackraven

Yes I think adding a kit (using an editor) to a multi is never game-breaking. Sure a kit may offer some extras that a trueclass won't. I think Berserker/..... (instead of Fighter/.....) is a good example. Or adding one of the Cleric kits to a Cleric multi.
But especially on SCS the game will remain to be challenging anyway. Besides IMO adding a kit tends to your charname less generic, and more unique.

Elrandir

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I think it's an awesome idea, and certainly not cheesy. I've thought about how cool DD is and how it'd be even better paired with mage myself. I say go for it!

Tome

Is a DD/mage multiclass really not overpowered? I would have thought that they would be absolutely amazing.

Dwarven Defender's only weakness is inability to master anything-multiclasses can't do that anyway, so DD/Mages have no weaknesses that a Fighter/Mage doesn't.

DD/Mages would get an extra spell, making them as versatile magically as a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist. They get a d12 hit dice for half their levels, innate physical defenses and Defensive Stance, all of which mean that early game, when mages are at their most vulnerable, suddenly becomes far more manageable-and by the end of BG2 you should be pretty much unstoppable. Fighter/Mage is already a contender for best character and I think this is basically the best kit combo for it.

I'm not saying don't go for it-it sounds really fun, just wondering if it's really not that brilliant as a combo.

mumumomo

It is indeed very very OP but not much more than "legit" OP class.

What does the dwarven defender bring ?
- D12 HP -> really non significant (1 HP/level if you get max. 0.5 if you roll)
- innate resistance at higher levels -> it is nice but when you can cast PFMW and stoneskin it's not needed at all
- defensive stance -> very nice for the early game. At higher levels PFMW/stoneskin will easily take care of it. Early is easy anyway with a mage (sleep, wands) but this one is nice to have.
- mastery (+2/+2 compared to a normal multi) -> also very nice but not game changing

It is probably slightly more poweful than a bersker->mage ot a fighter/illu but not by much

Also, if i had to choose a fighter kit to multi with mage, i think than a berserker/mage multi would be stronger (GM, rage is more useful than stance when you are a mage)

Tome

Berserker/Mages cannot surpass DD/Mages with regards to proficiency without the aid of mods. All fighter/mage multiclasses are capped at specialisation IIRC. Rage isn't much more useful than stance-in fact, I'd argue a mage's inherent squishiness means that they appreciate Defensive Stance more than they would appreciate the extra damage offered by Rage. Defensive Stance also means that you don't really need as many defensive spells, meaning you can pack more magical firepower-and I'd much rather have more attack spells than more range. On top of all that, Defensive Stance gives +2 to all saves.

TL;DR:

Berserker/Mages have Rage.
DD/Mages have innate defenses, higher HP and Defensive Stance (which can render them practically immune to physical damage near the end of BG2 IIRC)

I severely doubt Rage is anywhere near enough to counterbalance the advantages offered by Dwarven Defender.

Gotural

I think Dwarven Defender is actually not as good as it looks because you're probably forgetting that the Defensive Stance is slowing you down by 50% and (I tested it) it cannot be countered by Free Action or Haste.

So a Dwarven Defender/Mage is just a Fighter/Mage with 9 more HP which hardly makes a difference and some physical resistances which are a total waste because as a Mage you're going to be protected by Mirror Images / Stoneskin / PfMW anyway.
In the end you're going to be super slowed to gain +2 to all saves, you won't be able to kite or chase effectively while a Berserker/Mage uses his "I Win Button" and becomes insensible to every CC in the game, still run at full speed, gains some good bonuses in melee and is as tanky as the DD/Mage because of the mage's buffs.

I think a Dwarven Defender (or a Barbarian) is far more interesting for a Cleric multiclass.

Tome

Movement speed is irrelevant to endgame fights unless you're exploiting pathfinding errors and the like-especially when you'll be spending half or more of the battle casting spells. Again, Defensive Stance frees up spell slots for more firepower. Finally, Defensive Stance cannot be dispelled or countered which is an especially attractive prospect in Ascension.

Gotural

Movement speed is absolutely so amazing. Guess why Boots of Speed are by very far the best boots of the game ? Even if they don't give any real combat advantages they are incredibly powerful and can definitly change the way you're playing the game. You can dodge so much AoE, kite melees, reach the mages before they finish their cast, etc.

If at least the Boots of Speed could negate the slow from the Defensive Stance it would be okay but it doesn't, you're painfully slowed while "protected" by it.

Speaking of Ascension, I guess we can talk about SCS in this case. In SCS, the mages are going to kite you and you won't reach them easely because you will be super slow.

And if you tell me that Defensive Stance cannot be dispelled, one could argue that your enemies could dispell your magicals protections then CC you to death while Rage, which also cannot be countered, will stille save you and will save you a lot more spells.

Interesting discussion !

Tome

Good points made.

However, you're not taking into account the additional versatility offered by Defensive Stance's instantaneous nature and convenience. With a non-DD Fighter/Mage, your options are limited by what you've prepared beforehand. You have to prepare all these protections beforehand, then act accordingly. With the Defender/Mage, the longevity and instant nature of the ability mean that you can activate it on the fly. Do you know that you're headed to terrain where kiting is expected from enemies or necessary for your own utilisation? Good-use the standard Stoneskin/PfMW defence and get your Cleric to cast Chaotic Commands! Facing slow but powerful enemies? Defensive Stance will make you indestructible whilst your extra spell slots will allow you to deal that bit more damage. Dungeon crawling (which makes up a non-insignificant portion of the game)? Kiting is a lot rarer here, plus the long dungeons mean that every extra spell is very useful. Furthermore, in such situations you're likely to eventually run out of magical defences, especially if you have SCS installed. This renders you considerably more vulnerable or, if you had extra defences prepared, consumes even more spell slots.

mumumomo

I am with gotural on this one. At higher level physical immunity is anyway easy to reach with a mage. Stoneskin is on all the time, us only a level 4 slot and will be enough for95% of the fights. For th remaining fights pfmw is instant cast and only a level ６slot.

On the opposite some immunities given.by rage are much harder to reproduce