Sorcerer Spell Picks, again (no-reload, SCS)
Ygramul
Member Posts: 1,060
As per title, what are your picks, and in what order, for a for no-reload, SCS game in a party?
By non-cheese, I mean avoid broken spells, e.g.:
- I assume Project Image is still not fixed in BG2EE: it should *consume* the spells from your spell book, not be a limitless source of spells of all levels; it should not bypass summoning limitations
- Simulacrum should not let you use items & scrolls
- Sleep is broken at lvl 1 (it's essentially Mass Paralysis)
So, below are my picks to get started. The focus is an anti-mage loadout: in SCS the singularly greatest threat is mages; in a team a sorcerer can and should afford to specialize for that. As this is a no-reload game, some of the picks are "oh shit!" type back-ups even though there are more powerful alternatives. Aim is to *finish* the game, not be powerful in one encounter.
This is for a full-party with a secondary mage, but self-reliance is aimed at. (Currently, I'm running a Dragon Disciple, so an eventual Fire Immunity is hoped for.)
Spell Picks:
1. Shield / Blindness / Magic Missile / Prot. Petrification / Prot. Evil
2. Mirror Image / Melf's Acid Arrow / Remove Fear / Glitterdust / Blur
3. Spell Thrust (1) / Fireball (2) / Melf's Minute Meteors / Dispel Magic (3) / Slow
4. Stone Skin / Improved Invisibility / Fireshield Blue (4) / Teleport Field (5)
5. Breach / Spell Immunity / Lower Resistance / Spell Shield (6) (7)
6. Prot. Magic Weapons / True Sight / Chain Lightning / Death Spell
7. Limited Wish (8) / Ruby Ray of Reversal / Mordenkainen's Sword
8. Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting / Power Word: Blind / Spell Trigger
9. Wish / Time Stop / Spell Trap (9)
- Late TOB you can pick up: Delayed Blast Fireball / Simulacrum / Chain Contingency
Footnotes:
(1) Spell Thrust is useful all the way to the end, because Spell Immunity is cast frequently by NPC mages.
(2) SCS rightfully nerfs Skull Trap; also Fireball is thematic
(3) Dispel is more versatile than Remove Magic; have your second party mage memorize one Remove Magic. (You DO have a second mage, don't you?)
(4) Blocks insect spells in SCS; Blue is more useful for a DD.
(5) Your best defense in a melee ambush; it stacks shutting down most melee!
(6) Rumor has it Spell Shield protects against beholder rays, if true this is the one cheese I will permit: beholders are cheesy enough to begin with and the bane of no-reload runs.
(7) I don't Animate the Dead!
(8) Limited Wish = Mass Minor Globes OR Mass Negative Plane Protection (WIS >= 16); very useful!
By non-cheese, I mean avoid broken spells, e.g.:
- I assume Project Image is still not fixed in BG2EE: it should *consume* the spells from your spell book, not be a limitless source of spells of all levels; it should not bypass summoning limitations
- Simulacrum should not let you use items & scrolls
- Sleep is broken at lvl 1 (it's essentially Mass Paralysis)
So, below are my picks to get started. The focus is an anti-mage loadout: in SCS the singularly greatest threat is mages; in a team a sorcerer can and should afford to specialize for that. As this is a no-reload game, some of the picks are "oh shit!" type back-ups even though there are more powerful alternatives. Aim is to *finish* the game, not be powerful in one encounter.
This is for a full-party with a secondary mage, but self-reliance is aimed at. (Currently, I'm running a Dragon Disciple, so an eventual Fire Immunity is hoped for.)
Spell Picks:
1. Shield / Blindness / Magic Missile / Prot. Petrification / Prot. Evil
2. Mirror Image / Melf's Acid Arrow / Remove Fear / Glitterdust / Blur
3. Spell Thrust (1) / Fireball (2) / Melf's Minute Meteors / Dispel Magic (3) / Slow
4. Stone Skin / Improved Invisibility / Fireshield Blue (4) / Teleport Field (5)
5. Breach / Spell Immunity / Lower Resistance / Spell Shield (6) (7)
6. Prot. Magic Weapons / True Sight / Chain Lightning / Death Spell
7. Limited Wish (8) / Ruby Ray of Reversal / Mordenkainen's Sword
8. Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting / Power Word: Blind / Spell Trigger
9. Wish / Time Stop / Spell Trap (9)
- Late TOB you can pick up: Delayed Blast Fireball / Simulacrum / Chain Contingency
Footnotes:
(1) Spell Thrust is useful all the way to the end, because Spell Immunity is cast frequently by NPC mages.
(2) SCS rightfully nerfs Skull Trap; also Fireball is thematic
(3) Dispel is more versatile than Remove Magic; have your second party mage memorize one Remove Magic. (You DO have a second mage, don't you?)
(4) Blocks insect spells in SCS; Blue is more useful for a DD.
(5) Your best defense in a melee ambush; it stacks shutting down most melee!
(6) Rumor has it Spell Shield protects against beholder rays, if true this is the one cheese I will permit: beholders are cheesy enough to begin with and the bane of no-reload runs.
(7) I don't Animate the Dead!
(8) Limited Wish = Mass Minor Globes OR Mass Negative Plane Protection (WIS >= 16); very useful!
Post edited by Ygramul on
4
Comments
level 1 : prot from petrification sucks. use scrolls for it. Take identify (also sucks) instead
level 2 : web and invisibility should be taken. Prot from fear is useless in a group (clerics). Blur is also not great for a sorc
Level 3 : if skull trap is nerfed, fireball anyway sucks. Wands are 10 times better. Haste is one the best buff in the game and should be taken IMO
Level 4 : spiderspawn to go with web
Level 5 : OK, especially if you don't want animate dead
Level 6 : contigency is not bad. true sight in a group is unnecessary (clerics, thieves)
Level 7 : Ok sincve you don't want project image
Level 8 : Ok.
Level 9 : I would ditch spell trap (staff of the magi) and take shapechange (mindflayer form + timestop)
He'll be able to identify everything from his lore or the glasses he can buy in the slums.
Don't grab invisibility, get improved one instead on level 4.
I would pick deathfog instead of chain lightning.
web+spiderspawn are interesting, but not reliable: what if you start with an ambush: neither spell will help you. Although.... if you could survive two rounds: Limited Wish (Minor Globes) -> Web is a very powerful combo, I suppose, especially if a second mage would be casting Greater Malison in round 1.
Also, I don't do buy/sell trick for wands etc. That's just an exploit. So, wands cannot be relied upon.
Invisibility is tempting for a separate reason: I had lost games to the first round of a ranged ambush. Invisibility gets you out of sight. I suppose late SOA & TOB it becomes useless as most everything can see you through invisibility and when they cannot you can pop a potion for the few occasions it would help.
doesn't it fatigue you? Doesn't fatigue give a penalty till you rest? (What is that penalty by the way?)
It seems like a hassle. Especially since on a no-reload you cannot rely on resting safely: I usually rest before my team is completely drained of spells and resources, in case I get ambushed.
I don't see how you could get through these 30 charges, and this is not counting the ones you can buy in sorcerous sundries.
Web is the most reliable way to hold monsters. Just cast 2-3 of them and wat h everybody who is not immune being unable to move.
Also, maybe it's not perfect in all situations but really your blur and prot form fear are nearly completely useless in all situations
For haste, since you rest quite early in case of ambush, getting fatigue from rest is less of an hassle than if you were resting late all the time.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5960/is-fatigue-actually-detrimental
If you are mot going to summon demons, don't pick Prot from Evil. Pick Improved Haste instead of Chain Lightning and grab Slow. Skull Trap is better than Fireball anyway, so don't pick Fireball and pick Skull Trap instead.
As a Dragon Disciple you *have* to pick Incendiary Cloud, it's too good for them, you're naturally immune to it AND it's very powerful.
I suppose if I have a caster heavy party most every one can cast a Prot. Fire type spell on the first round and let 'er rip on all non-fire immune enemies.
This also relates to Skull Trap vs Fireball issue:
Fireball is more easily protected against. Skull Trap has shorter range and is deadly to the party in close range and ambushes. (Though past lvl 14, Limited Wish (Minor Globes) can protect against it as well.)
Assume a front line Minsc with fire retardant gear (or any of the Prot. Fire spells on him): a few Fireballs (+wands of fire, if needed) from the Sorcerer or other mages/bards will cleanup house on all the opponents that gang up on him, while Minsc is barely tickled by the flames. Skull Trap, on the other hand, would kill him dead every time!
Healing by Incendiary Cloud! Brilliant Idea.
Question is: do I give up Abi Dalzim or Power Word: Blind for it?
If memory serves, SCS mages use True Sight against Power Word: Blind (which acts like Vocalize against Silence).
What to do? What to do?
Is it worth getting a 'Spell Turning' like spell at earlier levels?
I have no major spell defense until lvl 9 (or until Staff of the Magi, which may be suicidal to get in no-reload, especially not until post-Underdark).
ABDHW is awesome as a damage dealer, probably the best damaging spell in the entire game. But a dragon disciple may find Incendiary cloud more fun:3 Incendiary clouds on a chain contingency will cover the entire battlefield with 60-240 fire damage per round, while healing you too. When the never ending derros/duergars/orogs assault you in Sendai's enclave, just unleash hell on them and watch them burn to a crisp. It is also useful against Drow, since they have to make their magic resistance check three times in a round to avoid taking damage:much better chance to hurt them than a simple ABDHW, which if they resist they resist all the damage.
I wonder how Incendiary Cloud works against enemy Spell Trap. If it eats 8 levels/round repeatedly, I may not even worry about not having Spell Strike...
Two or three ruby rays, followed by a spellstrike and then a breach (you have true sight already to foil the improved invisibility, right?) or high lvl dispel magic (area effect so illusions won't save the mage) will strip any mage of all of his precious defenses. He will be a sitting duck for the kill. Ofcourse, the bastard will just fire up a spell sequencer with spell deflection etc. to foil your fun. ^^ BUT a spell deflection can not protect him from masses of horrible,fiery, billowing clouds that flare up to cook everything within their borders. (Incendiary Cloud him! He may get a fireshield:red up via sequencer to reduce the fire damage by %50 but even then he will suffer greatly and die. Tsk, mages are just not reknown for their large amount of hit points.)
Peel the mages like an onion first, then throw them into the frying pan (your Incendiary Clouds >:-) they work on liches btw!) Mm can you smell the great food already? :-D
Sadly, fire damage just won't cut it against some enemies:red dragons, demons, devils, red salamanders, fire elementals (obviously) , some tougher golem variants (some lower tier golems are not immune to fire, so you can kill them if you manage to drop their general magic resistance), mordenkainen swords, etc. While ABDHW will work against pretty much anything not protected from magical energy. IIRC Kuo-toa enemies had some high magic damage resistance in a previous bg2 game, for some reason, but fire damage worked very well. It all depends on the area you are in, the monsters you face. Sadly, mages have the upperhand in this case, they can re-arrange their spell books to meet the challange at hand. Sorcerers can cast more spells and stuff, but if an enemy is immune to what they can do, they are helpless. (well, they still can throw darts or energy blades though.)
BTW, Incendiary cloud or ABDHW works well against Rakshasa groups, since they are immune to all spells below lvl 8, these are the easiest way for a pure blaster spellcaster to put the hurt in them. (summoners and gish hybrids have other options, ofcourse.) Which one works better entirely depends on the spesific protections they cloak up themselves with. If a rakshasa has pro from fire, incendiary cloud will not touch him, etc.
Checklist against an SCS mage:
- Spell Thrust [remove all protections lvl<5; includes Spell Immunity; Spell Shield]
- Ruby Ray [remove all other Spell Protections]
- Breach [remove combat protections]
Repeat as mage renews protections with contingencies & triggers, trying to get some damage in edgewise.
Nice thing is: it's a battle of attrition that you win if you play well, and loose if you don't, requiring you to know when to retreat in a no-reload game!
Very satisfying.
I hope reviving an ancient post is OK on this forum, because this post is still highly relevant to me. I had the exact same goals: I want a sorcerer in a support role in a party of six for SCS, and just like you I avoid Project Image because it's smelly cheese. I'm not running a strict no-reload, however.
After thinking it over for a long time, my list looks quite a bit different though.
1. Shield / Blindness / Magic Missile / Spook / Identify
Protection from evil: cleric does it better (mass version)
Prot from Petr: tempting, but I think you only need a few casts in the entire game, can do that with scrolls.
Spook: That -6 to saves is so good.
Chromatic Orb: Blindness is practically an instant kill too and with much better saves.
Identify: I know, I know. It's bad. I still like it for convenience and you don't really miss out on anything.
2. Mirror Image / Web / Invisibility / Melf's Acid Arrow / Glitterdust.
Remove Fear: I can see the value of having a second character with the ability, but still..
Web: Such a strong tool in your kit
Blur: your AC will still be too low to help much
Invisibility: Mainly to help my fighter/thief with sneaking at lower levels. I like the duration (24h!)
Vocalize: I am very afraid that I might regret ignoring this spell. How often does the AI like to cast silence? There is the amulet, but every character in the party wants to have it.
3. Haste / Slow / Spell Thrust / Fire Arrow
Fire Arrow is my personal favourite damage spell and the only one that hasn't been nerfed in SCS.
Melf's Minute Meteors WAS nerfed in SCS and quite badly, so I don't bother.
The fifth 3rd level spell arrives at such a high level that I don't worry about it.
Dispell magic: Keldorn does this far better. (I did not install the inquisitor nerf - mages are OP and nerfing their best counter is silly)
4. Stone Skin / Summon Spider Spawn / Secret Word / Greater Malison
Fireshield: I opted out of "fireshield blocks insect plague" in the SCS installation. Druids do not need a nerf, they are already too weak compared to mages.
Improved Invisibility: difficult choice, but I already have the normal invis. And you can still be targeted with anti-magic spells in SCS, plus AoE spells.
Spider Spawn: Mostly because it's fun and I want to enjoy myself. Good synergy with Web and having some low level summons helps to exhaust their death spells.
Secret Word: that way I don't need to waste a Ruby Ray on anything except Spell Traps.
5. Breach / Chaos / Spell Shield / Spell Immunity
Chaos is one of the best crowd control spells. Especially in a sequencer with Greater Malison and Slow.
Lower Resistance is only really good against dragons imo, but even against dragons I prefer breach + brute force.
6. Improved Haste / Prot. Magic Weapons / Death Spell
I don't understand how you can skip both normal Haste and Improved Haste in a party.. I prefer to have both. It may be overkill, but sometimes you want to haste the whole party AND an army of summons, and you don't want the timers to expire before you start the fight.
The fourth pick is very high level, I don't know yet. Either Mislead, Contingency or Truesight.
7. Ruby Ray / MordenKainen's Sword / Spell Sequencer
8. Spell Trigger / Horrid Wilting
I want Spell Trigger ASAP for Malison+Chaos+Slow, it makes my mouth water.
9. Whatever, you win the game at this point.
Some notes:
- Oracle instead of True Sight, I still can cast two True Sights, from Gem of Seeing and possibly from Book of Infinite Spells. This exchange allows Pierce Magic instead Lower Resistance.
- Spell Trap can be cast from Staff of Magi, superior 8 hour version.
- Protection from Fire and Protection from Acid so I can cast Death Fog and Incendiary Cloud on myself.
- Invisibility 10' provides long Invisibility, Mislead escape and Mass Invisibility -4/-4 buffs.
- Permanent Shapechange exploit to Mind Flayer form from Limited Wish scroll.
- Sequencers, triggers and contingencies from SCS innate ability option.
- PfMW, Improved Mantle +4 and Absolute Immunity +5 provide practical weapon immunity up to 72 rounds.
- Would take Spider Spawn, but because it's useless in LoB, I would take Emotion: Courage. Or maybe Enchanted Weapon, so Mindflayer form hit +3 instead of +2.
- Black Blade of Disaster, because only Ogremoch needs Imprisonment in SCS+Ascension, which can be cast from scrolls.
- No summon or damage spells from the same level, and trying to avoid similar spells in the book.
How did the shapechange to Mind Flayer become permanent? Does Simulacrum copy the scroll in SCS?
Enchanted weapon is very tempting in a party, if you change one of your characters into an archer (I'm considering to do that with Valygar).
For the permanent Shapechange ability, there's slight gap after the spell ends, and before the ability is taken away. If you hit the ability again at this gap, it retains it after the remove script has run. Looking it back, for that run I did it this way:
Enchanted Weapon would also push the Mindflayer ability to hit from +2 to +3, which is good against some opponents, like the Tanari and Karasur at Watcher's Keep.