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Weapon Style Rebalancing.

HooHoo Member Posts: 128
edited August 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
Hello, I'd like to suggest a small suggestion; Weapon Style Rebalancing.

There have been so many mod that produced various items, especially weapons for off-hand, so the advantages which can be obtained by Single Weapon Style (AC bonuses and +5% ciritical hit) usually can be gained by some off-handed weapons.

That is, I felt that Single Weapon Style is a little weaker than the other weapon styles. As far as I know the weapon styles can't be modified by modding due to its engine limitation. Thus, this would need to be supported by BGEE imo.

And, from the rebalancing point of view, I'd want to suggest that Single Weapon Style should give some more advantage to the main-handed weapon. It means that this weapon style should provide not only the current +5% ciritical hit bonus but also some more bonuses like damage/THAC0 to the main-handed weapon.

As a result, the character with Single Weapon Style can deal damage as much as Two-handed did. Since Two-handed weapons provide longer range than One-handed weapons, this is reasonable change imo; Equal damage and + critical hit bonuses, but AC bonus vs. Speed Factor+long range bonuses.

What do you think about it?

Comments

  • HooHoo Member Posts: 128
    edited August 2012
    Well, I thought same things as you mentioned, too. But I didn't have good idea how to improve Single Weapon Style... What I mentioned previously was just an example. If you have good idea to characterize the weapon style it would be welcome.
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    I'm not sure I agree with setting the longsword damage to that of a claymore, as the weight of the weapon is significant to this damage. I do like the 3.0 rule that using a weapon with both hands give 1 ½ of the STR based damage bonus. It seems that BG knows when you're using a weapon single-weapon vice weapon and shield, so this would be implementable.

    The other missing item is that the Bastard Sword, in particular, had different damage for single-hand vice 2-hand use. BG does not use this difference, nor does it use the AD&D damage versus large opponents.
  • bill_zagoudisbill_zagoudis Member Posts: 207
    edited August 2012
    well i'm afraid late game sword and shield is the best style...the ac bonus especially vs missiles is too much and the 5% crit is neglectable,as for 2-hand the style is still inferior(2 extra dmg 5% crit and -speed factor) is ok but still no big deal,and i don't really feel that the swords themselves are that powerfull to compensate as the tooltip suggests(except for Carsomyr which is paladin only),is Gram the Sword of Grief that superior to Angruavadal or Foebane or Flail of the ages,to match that and a Shield of the Order or Darksteel Shield? not really...
  • HooHoo Member Posts: 128
    edited August 2012
    Balancing Single Weapon Style is very difficult comparing with the other weapon styles. AC bonus of SWS can be achiavable from Sword and Shield Style or even Two Weapon Style. Furthermore, +5 crit also can be gained by Two Weapon Style using some item-related mods (e.g., Item Revisions).

    If you don't like my idea that SWS gives extra damage bonuses because of its reality (aka "Single weapons generally have lower weight than Two-handed weapons"), I'd like to suggest extra THAC0 bonuses to SWS instead.

    Since SWS seems to be related with agility/accuracy/concentration, this might be the best solution imo. What I want to say is that SWS should have at least one or more unique features that can not be achiavable by Two Weapon Style (i.e., generally TWS can give +AC/crit/APR so I thought some bonuses to main-weapon, that aren't given to Two-Handed Weapon Style, could be SWS's own feature).
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    To be honest, I would think that you should get a speed bonus for SWS, as you aren't fighting a heavy weapon for the next attack or limited by the shield.
  • SilenceSilence Member Posts: 437
    I think two-weapon style, as many people have said, is the inferior one (though not by very much). I think Single weapon style should stay the same. Single weapon style is accessible to everyone (rogues, etc.). IMO, it's meant to give the weaker characters and their weaker weapons a little boost. I don't think it's meant to replace the shield slot or be competitive with a TH weapon. To a thief, who cannot use a shield or a TH weapon anyway (except a staff), SWS is an excellent weapon style that can really pump up backstab damage.

    TH weapons are largely the fighters territory - no other class has much access to the "good" ones (eg: Halberd or TH Sword). That said, they're supposed to be better and this comes at a cost. Interestingly, a TH Sword only does 1 more damage on average than a longsword of the same properties (d10 vs. d8 respectively). Despite the game's suggestion that "TH swords are more powerful than their one-handed counterparts", they really aren't more powerful by much. Further, magical longswords and other one-handed weapons greatly outnumber magical TH swords, particularly in BG2. If SWS becomes better than TWS, this small edge for TH weapons disappears completely.
  • FrozenDervishFrozenDervish Member Posts: 295
    Single weapon is amazing for what it is, it allows you to gain an AC boost for BG1 which beats shields for a large portion of the game, allows you to roleplay a duelist with little downside, and allows you to spend proficiency points elsewhere early on with no negative to hit that dual wielding give so you can put 1-2 points in single weapon, then put points into your weapon as well as a ranged weapon giving a greater hit and damage advantage.

    2h specialization is worthless compared to 1h due to no AC increase, the speed factor increase being negligible and to top it off you can't instantly equip a shield if needed while keeping your weapon bonus if you put a point into say great sword.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    actually that speed factor increase for 2 handed weapon style is not negligible at all, when minsc has a 2 handed sword in the first dungeon in bg 2, he is slow and sloppy as a fish, you have a fighter with 4 stars in two handed sword and 2 stars in two handed weapon style, and he will be slicing through enemies before they can even blink, plus the 2h wep style proficiency thing is broken, in the description it says that the +1 critical hit is suppose to happen on the 2nd point, but it gives it to you on the first, but other than that, i think all the weapon styles are fair, i use them all for different classes and they work very well, and to be honest i think the sword and shield style is the most shafted one, even before the +4 bonus vs missile weapons bonus is added to my guys from that style i already have a +10 bonus at least from armors and other items so enemies are going from cant hit me to definately cant hit me, i think what it should do is; first point- +2 ac bonus vs missile weapons, second point- +1 ac bonus vs everything else, because there isnt nearly as many things in the game to protect you against, crushing, piercing and slashing as there are protection from missile weapons
  • MooseChangerPatMooseChangerPat Member Posts: 148
    I gotta agree @sarevok57, the sword and shield style is the one that I feel is hurting the most. The bonus AC vs missile weapons is practically useless if you have things like a cloak of displacement, or the Fortress Shield, or Boots of Avoidance. Really, it begs the question of why would anyone waste their points on it? Unless maybe they're using a buckler, and even then, the most magical buckler you can find is Kiel's Buckler. Bucklers man... they get no love T_T
  • SilenceSilence Member Posts: 437
    @Sarevok57: I think you're 100% right about Sword and Shield. The AC is kind of nice at the beginning, but pales in comparison to the damage/hit/speed factor/critical hit bonuses you get later. It might be nice if the AC applied to more than just missile weapons (even if the net AC bonus was smaller).
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    yeah, just as @MooseChangerPat said, it might be a little usefull for small shields and bucklers, but again the best small shield is only +2 and there is one +1 buckler in SoA, and having other armor modifiers would be nice, but no doubt nothing is going to get changed anyway, oh well im already used to what we got, and they will have to work as like they always have :)
  • ddubiousddubious Member Posts: 29
    I think these are already balanced against one another well.

    The bonuses from full investment (2 points) in Single Weapon Style gives you -2 AC and a 19-20 crit.


    Compare this to Two Handed Style's +1 damage and 19-20 crit (as well as about 1 point of damage from the weapon being bigger). You trade 2 points of damage for 2 points of AC. That's not a bad comparison in either direction.

    Of note: they say "Magical two handed weapons are more powerful than their single handed counterparts", but their notin BG1. Even in BG2, Flail of the Ages, Roseblade, Celestial Fury, and a score of other great one-handers are lying everywhere. Only the late game artifacts, like Holy Avenger, Vorpal, and Wave, are truly 'better', and even then - not by much.


    Sword and Shield style is about as useful too. At 2 points, the wielder gets 4 bonus to AC vs missile weapons. The magic bonus on shield is hard to find in BG1 (usually +1, one TOSC +2, one late +1/+4 vs missiles), and in BG2 they're still not that common (+2, late +3 and up).

    So, in BG1, you're usually looking at Tower Shield +1 for +2 AC (+5 vs missiles). By using single weapon style, you're trading 5 AC vs missiles for crit range, but you still have to buy and lug around that shield.


    It doesn't look like Single Weapon Style is weak until the BG2 mid game, but after that, I'd have to agree with you. Heading into late game BG2 or ToB without a cool shield mod and a few extra AC hurts when compared to just a 19-20 crit.

    Rogues also get access to Single Weapon Style, but they can't use shields, so this is sort-of a free bonus to them, if they can afford it.

    I guess the weakness of Single Weapon style doesn't bother me because it only affects warriors (who have three options other than this one) in mid game BG and later. I wouldn't know how to balance this mechanically - its a sticky situation because it only gets mucked up very late.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    very true @ddubious i would say that mid to late game bg2 a warrior using single weapon style would be a little less because he is either going to be using a 2 handed weapon or a single handed weapon and a shield, im kinda thinking that single weapon style is more built for classes that can use shields but most of the irony is, all the classes that cant use shields can only point one point into while the warriors can put 2 points into it ( except for swashbucklers) so maybe they were thinking, well you can have a +4(+5) ac bonus from a shield or you can sacrifice a couple AC points for a little bit better critical hit instead, maybe that is the motivation mayhaps?
  • ddubiousddubious Member Posts: 29
    @sarevok57 Possible. I figure, like in pnp, they were designed with warriors in mind, and later (by popular demand) they were given to other classes.
  • KithrixxKithrixx Member Posts: 215
    If it were me, I would have Shields gain -1 AC per point of Shield proficiency with -3 vs. missiles, SWS gain speed factor with levels, and leave TWS and THS as they are.
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