Subbing Coran for Kivan before doing Ulcaster-Gullykin-Firewine [First-Run: BG1-ToSC]

Eadwyn_G8keeper

It seems to me to be quite RP-correct for Kivan to suggest enlisting Coran in his place now that the Bandit Camp has been demolished. He needs some time alone now with his forest-friends and does not feel comfortable about the prospect of Baldur's Gate proper.

Also, Imoen dualled [level 5] after Nashkel Mines and she is still about 18000+ away from Level 6 Mage, thus leaving party without a Thief -- now keenly missed with all those unopened chests in the Bandit Camp and our close call with the Lightning Bolt trap in Tazok's tent [- UNavoidable!! in getting to Chap. 4-].

My question is whether Coran will stand for doing Ulcaster-Gullykin-Firewine Bridge before Cloakwoods. Perhaps I need to slay at least one Wyvern first to get his allegiance??

My party is: Charname [F/M] 90pts Level 5/4
Imoen [Mage-Thief Dual] 5-5
Ajantis
Kivan
Jaheira
Branwen [who replaced Minsc and boo after Nashkel Mines]

Twani

You have ten days to kill a wyvern after meeting Coran. You might have time to do the dungeons with minimal resting, but I wouldn't chance it. Go find Coran a wyvern first and then go off dungeoning, I would suggest.

SapphireIce101

I'm agreeing with @Twani‌. Kill the Wyvern first, then Coran will be all happy, and want to stay with you.

As for Kivan, I don't know if it was the BG1 NPC Project mod that did this, or was Kivan doing it by himself, but I think Kivan vows to help you with your problem, no matter what, even if he doesn't like it.

Eadwyn_G8keeper

Just checked Coran's stats again. He will probably be Level 5 with only @20% Trap finding. Wish I knew how much XP he will need to hit Level 6.

Even 40% Trap finding is not much. I think I could reasonably RP gearing up Ajantis in dungeons to weather Lightning
Bolt or Fireball traps [potions of absorption and fire resistance+Boots and Ring]. And Imoen will get her Thief abilities back before Durlag's Tower which I understand has much higher-rated trap difficulties. But is there a potion meanwhile that boosts trap finding temporarily??

elminster

Coran starts with 16762 in each class. So he'd need about an extra 6500 xp (in total) to hit level 6 as a thief.

Eadwyn_G8keeper

Now I am starting to see more clearly that the question of when to Dual-Class Imoen [without Edwin, Dynaheir or Xan in party] is linked to how soon you can get to Chap. 4 and Coran. If I can recruit Coran when he is still a 3/3 FighterThief then, no worries!!

So I am thinking of just doing FAI-Beregost-Nashkel-Carnival then Gnoll fortress loop and Basilus-Melikamp before completing Nashkel Mines - then heading for Larswood and Bandit Camp.

My Charname F/M will probably be only Level 4/3 at that point. Hopefully I can still get the 3/3 version of Coran, have a farewell party for Kivan and then Dual-Class Imoen whenever she hits Level 5 to get the 3X Backstab.

All I will really have to finesse is to make sure I have enough Trap Finding from Coran to disarm the Cloakwood traps as I only plan to do the abbreviated version of Firewine Ruins. In Spiderwood I will cast Invisibility on Charname to spring the Web-traps and scout mages.

SharGuidesMyHand

Eadwyn_G8keeper said:

In Spiderwood I will cast Invisibility on Charname to spring the Web-traps and scout mages.

Will this work? Doesn't setting off a trap reveal your existence?

You can always use Branwen's find traps spell to at least reveal the traps. If you have a protection from magic scroll, you may be able to cast this on a party member and have them set off the traps without suffering the effects (I've never tried this myself though, so I can't confirm whether it would work).

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Eadwyn_G8keeper

@SharGuidesMyHand: In an earlier run-through [I still have not progressed beyond Chap. 4!!] it worked just fine. Charname just remained stuck until Webs expired. No problem. [I am playing BG-Tutu so cannot vouch for BG-ee].

BTW, I have verified that my party can reach Coran at 3-3 level even though we were not strong enough to weather more than a minimal amount of BTElites in Larswood and I doubt we could have weathered a Chap. 3 Peldvale... Of course, with a little forethought, etc we could have done better but so what - unless, of course, collecting a few more scalps really appeals. LOL! ~Besides, the XP for BTElites really sucks!

We have only done 1 Ankheg and no Basilisks so far. On the other hand we maxed out on Winter Wolves(8). So I feel sure that we could have included Ulcaster Ruins...thus resolving all significant traps before Cloakwoods.. without triggering the 5/5 Coran. -Ooops! I forgot there is a troublesome Web somewhere in an Ettercap cave--perhaps the map with Arghain.

Now I see that we still have the following trap-free maps: Fisherman's Village, Mutamin's Garden, Valley of Tombs, Bjornin's quest and Drizzt, Pirate Ship, Lighthouse, Excavations, Samuel and Hafiz, **Spiderwood**, Peldvale, Larswood, Gullykin and Firewine Bridge for getting Imoen's Mage Level 6 at 20K-XP and recovering her Thief abilities. So, no more worries!! My endgame Imoen will simply have somewhat less Stealth-abiliity for Backstabbing purposes than Imoen dual-classed at Level 6.

[ completely unnecessary Note: ~From a purist RP perspective the whole concept of Dual-Classing Imoen IMHO is sketchy. Just how does one Roleplay an intuition that the adventurers will be able to do without a Trap-finder for 20,000-40,000XP, particularly after the Nashkel Mines and Tazok's Tent!! ] Cheers!

Aurorus

Just pick up Safana and all your problems are solved. With acid darts at 50 gp per 5, darts of stunning, and darts of wounding for sale at High Hedge, Safana is a monster pre Baldur´s Gate, and much more cost-effective that Kivan or Coran and their pricey arrows.

jackjack

Plus she's low level so you can pick most of her thief points for her.

SionIV

Let's be honest here, while Safana is good there is no way that she comes close to Coran or Kivan even with darts. Normal arrows aren't expensive, the +1 can be farmed from Bandits, same with cold arrows and you can get fire arrows from Kobolds. You'll have an easier time get hold of magical arrows than darts.

By putting * into darts on Coran or Kivan they will also outperform Safana with darts.

Safana is a great thief, but she is not close to as good as Kivan or Coran.

jackjack

I would say that she's not as strong as those two, and the worst ranged attacker of the three, but she's a better thief than Coran and, obviously, Kivan.

SionIV

jackjack said:

I would say that she's not as strong as those two, and the worst ranged attacker of the three, but she's a better thief than Coran and, obviously, Kivan.

I agree with that, she is the second best thief in the game (after Imoen) but putting her up against Kivan or Coran when it comes to ranged is pretty silly. I really do like her (even more than Imoen) but if you're after someone that can deal the same damage as Kivan or Coran she'll fail, if you're looking for a great thief then you should take her.

Eadwyn_G8keeper

Its clearly an RP thing for me at this point. The whole "problem" of being without any Trap-finder/Thief while a Dual-classed Imoen is getting her Mage level 6-7 ~or recruiting Coran/Safana and disbanding whoever~ only exists if one gives high value to narrative/journaling. For that matter the entire D&D standard limiting parties to 6 members is kinda like....how do you journal that!!

Really, the only reason I have not traded Ajantis for Level 3/3 Coran -after an early Bandit Camp- is that Coran will not be able to carry an Ankheg shell and his picture is atrocious. ~Pfffft! [which would leave: Charname F/M, Imoen-dualled, Minsc, Branwen, Kivan, Coran]. Imoen properly equipped will certainly fill the Paladin's shoes re our big-ticket purchases.... Ajantis, as Paladin, might even insist upon it because he knows how keenly Charname regrets earlier failures with Edwin and Dynaheir to increase the party's Arcane power. When he learns that Imoen has the capacity to reinvent herself as a Mage and their new acquaintance Coran has the makings of a great Thief-Archer when Level 3/3, how could he not see it as the will of Helm???

This first run-through I view Thief as primarily insurance, in case Bioware has made Trap-finding/disarming a necessity at some key plot-point. As of course has been demonstrated in Nashkel Mines and Tazok's tent. I don't really get the whole Backstabbing thing. Not my style. For Lock-opening I will have Knock at some point and Kivan will have OK stealth I should think with Cloak and Boots. If he can wear Cloak of Non-Detection with magical armor???

Then my only challenge is how to RP that lightly-armored Imoen/Safana/Coran just happens to be Party Leader when traps are immediately ahead instead of Back-rank. Or just how Ajantis happens to drink the correct potion before springing a trap. And also just how players can psych-out that points put into Pickpockets are mostly wasted in BG.

It would be cool to introduce a Cleric/Paladin or Bard-modded item such as an Amulet ]which
gives an intuitive 'ping' [without being activated] that there is a trap somewhere within a
25-30 ft range. Then party could choose between Sanctuary, Tanking, Thief-on-alert mode,
Saving Game, etc. Just a thought...

Or I could just accept that almost all players handle traps with metagame foreknowledge or save/reload whether or not they have a satisfactory explanation for it. Either that or they invent some psychic ability or detailed reconnaissance advice, from Volo perhaps. ~BTW, is Volo a Harper??

On the other hand I can easily see that a Thief character might become much more of an interesting plot element in Baldur's Gate city where such things as Thieves Guild, fencing operation, smugglers might be expected. Plus, there really ought to be some distinction between Ranger's wilderness stealth and Thief's urban stealth IMHO...... enough!!

Aurorus

You do not "need" a thief with trap-finding, but many things are made much more difficult without one. When exploring areas that I am not familiar with or have not done for many years, I like to have as wide a range of options as possible for dealing with any problems that may arise. Thieves bring a lot of different abilities to bear and open up a range of options. Stealth and trap-finding allow for scouting and certainly justifies the thief as a "lead" character, maybe not the decision-maker of the group, but certainly a primary source of battle intelligence for the decision-maker (i.e. charname) to make his decisions- a trusted adviser, in effect (which is one of the reasons Yoshima, in thief in BGII, is such a compelling character, as he is written and voice-acted very much in this style).

Stealth and reconnaissance add tactical options, permitting attacks on enemies from multiple directions simultaneously. The back-stabs that stealth produces as a byproduct are ways to get a large amount of direct target damage fast, which is often critical against really tough enemy fighters who are going through your tank quickly or to get mages whose defenses are down immediately before they set up a new layer of defense.

Trap-setting has any number of good uses. Trap-finding obviously helps tremendously, even if one has metagame foreknowledge. Open locks is not essential, and I often neglect it (a potion of master thievery gets you +40, so you do not need much in the way of open locks as a skill). Pick pockets is surprisingly useful in many of the side quests and sub-plots in both BGI and II, not just for non lawful groups, but also to avoid violence in sticky situations. (I also usually neglect it though, again as +40 from a single potion is often enough to get the job done).

You can wear the cloak of non-detection with armor, but if you are playing vanilla, it is not very important as very few enemies ever bother with detect invisibility (though there are a couple). It is an absolute must-have item if you use the SCS tactics mod, as much of BGI comes down to who wins the battle for visibility.

As to limiting parties to 6, resources and plunder are limited, as are accommodations at inns and so forth. It requires tremendous resources and a large-scale political, economic, and social system to field an army. Trusted friends and companions are as scarce as resources, so for charname to limit his companions to 5 seems like a reasonable course of action. Of course, you can always use 6 or 7 NPCs leaving 1 or 2 behind at the tavern for any given mission. I have done this in the past, and this is, in fact, the way it works in some later Bioware games (SWKOR and Dragon Age, for example).

This may be the way for you to go. Recruit Safana, but leave her at the Friendly Arm Inn when you do not feel as though you need her, subbing her in as you deem necessary. Rogues level quickly and the difference between a rogue with 26,000 XP and a rogue with 56,000 XP is hardly noticeable.

Eadwyn_G8keeper

~~Dreamed up a Roleplay scenario yesterday which would add interest to recruiting Coran. The Cloakwood Lodge encounter with Aldeth and the Druids. It could mark a transition in which Charname has successively emerged from his passive acceptance of the tutoring and leadership of Jaheira and Ajantis while trying to figure out just what-the-*** was going on.

Now as the Iron Throne begins to emerge more clearly as the root of the problem he feels himself coming into his own and chafing at the Paladin's well-meaning but self-importantly dominant position. This adventure is something much more than a romantic posturing "-For the Glory of Helm!!-" and Ajantis may someday rock the boat at a critical moment when a strictly ethical course of action just will not get the job done...!! A dangerous dilemma...

The party contracts to assist Aldeth but just as the battle commences Ajantis checks for Good/Evil and is dismayed to find that the party is about to do something terribly wrong. He tries to stop the battle but Branwen has begun by casting Silence 15' radius and he cannot do anything but wave his arms.

Charname figures he has been hit by something like a Confusion spell. Imoen, recently dualled, is anxious to contribute and pops off a Fireball with Wand of Fire. An enraged Ajantis then attacks Aldeth [if possible]-BTW, scoring an excellent Magic Sword and the Party has a real crisis of confidence!!

The result is an extremely shaken Ajantis who fears that his Paladin powers may be in danger. Not a subject he knows very much about. He feels the strong need to join Capt. Brage in an extended pilgrimage-penance at the Temple of Helm in Nashkel. Charname has mixed feelings as they leave Ajantis in the Lodge.

Enter Coran!!! Oghma be praised!!!

Note: ~This would also work well for an early Bandit Camp and Level 3/3 Coran. In this case Charname may have earlier vetoed the idea of Imoen Dual-Classing. After all she can use Wands of Magic Missile and Sleep already. The party simply would be irresponsible to proceed without Trap-finding after Nashkel Mines. Now, with a 3/3 Coran, Imoen can wait until Level 6

I like the idea of Safana and will definitely do a playthrough with her as main thief. Perhaps with Imoen dual-classing at Level 3 and Charname as Fighter/Cleric. But the idea of having her on call in FAI for my current party until Imoen gets her Thief levels back is....I dunno!

Aurorus

I don´t think there is anything stopping you from attacking both the druids and Aldeth. Aldeth and his friends just stand there blue if you fight the druids, so I believe that you can have Ajantis turn on them after casting a detect evil. This may cause some script problems later, but I doubt if it will be anything major.