yet another roleplaying question for my current game: what now to do with Eldoth!

Lemernis

I want to thank folks for their helpful and insightful input on my Let the Fates Decide game in some recent posts about it. I'm chronicling the game in a Challenges and Playthroughs thread to demonstrate the gaming method, but I'm also periodically seeking feedback on some things here in General, since to be realistic that's where the most feedback will be available. :-) The method is concisely described here, by the way. In a nutshell, I combine roleplaying, the element of chance via card flips and die rolls for what characters might sometimes do, and EE Keeper to make more things seem possible and unpredictable in the game.

I'm playing it minimal reload (only upon PC death or technical glitch).

In this game I have roleplayed that Eldoth has accepted that it's actually best for the party not to attempt his quest to blackmail Skie's father. Coran did speak with Skie, but she fled in a panic. I couldn't have added her to the party anyway, since that would have required dropping someone else. And from a RP vantage the party would not have done that. They did have room for Eldoth, however, and regard him as an asset. So I used some RP rationalizations to add just him, assuming that the party interacting with Skie and her fleeing would satisfy Eldoth's quest script.

I just had Eldoth and Coran embark on a nightlong burglary and pickpocketing spree. However, upon return to the Low Lantern I've reach a point where apparently the quest timer has triggered that Eldoth wishes to leave because his quest hasn't been completed. (Note: The party's rep is only 13, so he isn't leaving because they're too popular.) Just after resting the party Eldoth leaves.

Failing to anticipate this, I have been journaling in the playthrough thread Eldoth's recounting of his and Coran's exploits the night before on the following morning, at breakfast at Jopalin's tavern-inn. Interestingly enough, in the roleplay I very nearly had Eldoth charm Coran with the nymph cloak to take all the items that they have stolen that night and leave the party anyway! That is probably what he would really do, actually. But I'm having a lot of fun with him in the party, so I RPed that he opts not to betray the party (not yet, at least), and will stay for now.

And of course now the game engine has him leave anyway.

Now, since I'm working outside of the box anyway, I wonder what's a satisfying way to handle this...

These are the options that I can envision:

1) Eldoth surreptitiously leaves according to the scripting, taking with him the items that he happens to be carrying at the time. I.e., that's the way the cookie crumbles.
2) Since Eldoth is going to leave anyway, I fudge the no-reload rule a bit by backtracking to the point before retiring for the evening and have him Charm Coran, take everything, and abscond.
3) Eldoth leaves according to the scripting but I CLUA him back in, and RP that he insists that the party carry out his blackmail scheme; which they will not, but then he doesn't leave with the a big portion of the loot they just gathered (only as much of it as the party feels he deserves).
4) Eldoth leaves according to the scripting but I CLUA him back in and simply hope for the best that he doesn't abruptly leave again at some point.
5) Via EE Kepper I change the quest variable for him in a save just prior to him leaving so that he will stay.

What do you all recommend? (Sorry that it's a lot to digest, lol.)

jacobtan

I'll weigh in.

Based on how Eldoth is portrayed, Option 2 is more likely to occur. He is a scoundrel and a parasite, and will behave accordingly by sucking all the resources he can lay his hands on.

If in your RP he's a little more rash, a little less devious, then possibly Option 1, since he leaves in a huff without thinking how he could have leeched more from the party before leaving.

The rest of the options... are unlikely, unless he grew a conscience while he's with your party, but this will mean he's acting out of alignment and character... will have to come up with a good RP explanation.

Lemernis

True, but perhaps this parasite would like for the host to get a bit fatter, no?

jacobtan

Lemernis said:

True, but perhaps this parasite would like for the host to get a bit fatter, no?

Could be, though we also need to explain away these:

1. If he's leaving, he won't be coming back, so he doesn't need to care anyway
2. Parasites need not care for their host... if their host dies, they just find another
3. Based on Eldoth's background, he's appears willing to burn bridges for self-advancement. No reason why PC would have any better treatment, especially given that the Iron Throne is after PC's blood. Eldoth is even a potential candidate for betrayal of PC's movements to Iron Throne.

Just came to mind one group of adventurers - Arilyn Moonblade, Danilo Thann with their evil elf associate, Elaith Craulnober. But Elaith has some seeds of good in him still (he was self-sacrificial for his daughter), so I guess if Eldoth has some redeeming factor in him (you gotta RP that ), it's not impossible to RP Eldoth somewhat like Elaith, to have some attachment to a party for whatever purpose he has in mind, but not being all THAT evil LOL

MacHurto

Option 2. They dont want their blackmail scheme so he robs them amd leaves

Lemernis

For reference sake, here is what I journaled for this roleplay. It's in brackets because it's my own commentary as player. The story is narrated by CHARNAME, and all of the following occurs out of his view:

[After making the deal with Brevlik Eldoth attempted to persuade Coran that they should keep keep most of the treasure for themselves, and cash it out now, bringing back a quarter of it in coin for the party. Despite the influence of Eldoth’s cloak, to this Coran did not agree. Coran has developed quite a fondness by now for the party. He likes Imoen and Neera in particular. And he feels sympathy for Oracos as well, liking him well enough also. Coran figured there is almost certain to be even greater treasure on the path ahead. Moreover he is enjoying the thrill of this particular adventure that they are on. So the goodness in Coran’s heart, his sense of attachment to the party, and thrill for adventure the party is on overrided his personal friendship with Eldoth and temptation for personal gain. Plus, he felt the rogue stone is enough of a personal reward for him at that point.

Coran responded to Eldoth that the star sapphire gem should hold him for now, and Coran is gambling that they will come into even greater treasure by remaining loyal to the party. Coran added that the same thought had occurred to him as well. But he prayed to Tymora about it, and this is how he feels moved after doing so.

Eldoth was peeved at this and persisted in trying to convince Coran that they should just divvy up the treasure and be done. But Coran did not budge.

At this point I could have flipped a card as to whether Eldoth charmed Coran with the cloak, took all the loot, and left the party. But instead I roleplayed that he decides to stick around.

It really could easily have gone the way of Eldoth betraying them, I realize. But as Eldoth mulled over the option, what stopped him is the consideration that, as Coran has observed, there may well be far greater treasure ahead. They will be dealing with the wealthy trade organizations of the Seven Suns and Iron Throne, after all. So Eldoth grudgingly opted to stick with the party, despite Coran messing up his plan to make a quick score and take off.

Also a something of a factor, although a lesser one, is that Eldoth genuinely does rather like Coran. Eldoth is NE, but theoretically friendships still can somewhat mitigate that alignment’s sheer greed and selfishness. Alignments are intended as rough guidelines, after all.]

And I should add that they have quite a haul. The items they gathered for the burglary and pickpocketing spree include:

lightning wand
wand of paralyzation
scroll of protection from fire
Knock spell
Blindness spell
Blur spell
Invisibility spell
Mirror Image spell
several moderately valuable minor gems
around 600 in gold
unidentified club (night club +2)
four unidentified protection scrolls (magic, poison, two of them cursed)
unidentified bracers (gauntlets of weapons skill)
unidentified ring (cursed)
unidentified tome (tome of clear thought)
unidentified enchanted cloak (cloak of balduran)

By the time all those things are identified, that's actually a huge haul, especially with the Cloak of Balduran.

jacobtan

@Lemernis‌

Sorry if I haven't had the time to catch up on the entire thread... but by this time, has the struggle with Iron Throne turned ugly? Has Eldoth's views on the party's struggle with Sarevok been described? As Neutral Evil, if he feels the path ahead is going to get worse, he may pull out early... again leading us to Option 2/1

Lemernis

@MacHurto Remember that in the roleplay Eldoth has at least said (and I have roleplayed that he is genuine here) that he is willing to give up on the blackmail scheme, as there was too strong a chance that he could be tied to it. Not to say, though, that he won't just be a slimeball and rob Coran, and leave.

Lemernis

jacobtan said:

@Lemernis‌

Sorry if I haven't had the time to catch up on the entire thread... but by this time, has the struggle with Iron Throne turned ugly? Has Eldoth's views on the party's struggle with Sarevok been described? As Neutral Evil, if he feels the path ahead is going to get worse, he may pull out early... again leading us to Option 2/1

Well, they know for sure that the Iron Throne is behind the attempts to kill the PC and his party. However, they haven't yet investigated the Seven Suns as they agreed to Scar. They are about to do that.

jacobtan

@Lemernis‌

If Eldoth is NE, a parasite, and is only in for the money, eventually all his relationships will be expendable if the going gets rough. This will cancel the effects of his growing fondness for Coran or any other party members.

What I'm unsure of is... given his character and personality, what is his breaking point? The point where he leaves the party out of accumulated frustration, mismatched goals and increased self-preservation instincts, and when is it going to be?

If you feel there is no breaking point, then the implication is that Eldoth can be kept in this party indefinitely, from a RP perspective. Then Option 5 is the way to go.

If there is a breaking point, this issue about him leaving the party will resurface repeatedly until endgame ^_^

Lemernis

@jacobtan Yeah, definitely Eldoth is in it for himself, and everyone else is useable and thoroughly expendable. But by that very token, would he not see Skie that way? Might he not see greater potential rewards by sticking with the party than his blackmail scheme? The blackmail plot is pretty darn risky. And already just in one night of larceny with Coran they came away with a lot of loot.

It looks like from Dudleyville that the blackmail scheme nets 8000 gp (and from a RP vantage, eventually also the onus that the Flaming Fist would come after him). Not that Eldoth knows how much gold he can actually get from his blackmail scheme, nor the value of the unidentified items that he and Coran stole... but when Eldoth uses Friends while wearing the nymph cloak it will turn out that he can get the same amount for the Cloak of Balduran alone.

How well Eldoth speculates he might make out from either scenario is very hard to say, though, granted.

jacobtan

Lemernis said:

@jacobtan Yeah, definitely Eldoth is in it for himself, and everyone else is useable/expendable/discardable. But by that very token, would he not see Skie that way? Might he not see greater potential rewards by sticking with the party than his blackmail scheme? Already just in one night of larceny with Coran they came away with a lot of loot.

Actually, I think he does see Skie that way. The only person he loves is himself... and Skie is not wanted for her character or personality, but because she is of the Silvershield family. Blackmail, joining the family in marriage, invoking the Silvershield name in his shady dealings... he can do a lot with Skie. She is just too useful to let go. It's even better that Skie seems smitten with him, making it easy for him to control her.

For the party, he has no control, and he is frustrated by the party's resistance to his plans. Unless he has unlimited tolerance, this will eventually come to a breaking point... which is the reason for my question. You're the overgod of this playthrough, will he or will he not break?

MacHurto

Well, he has int 13 so that can work too :-) he would probably leave with as much as he can before candlekeep, possibly. Depending on charname, they can hunt him down and deal with him

Lemernis

From my standpoint as a player it may be most beneficial to cut Eldoth loose now with relatively minimal damage. It's most likely only a matter of time before he betrays the party.

Another question is whether Eldoth really acts out by taking everything Coran has; and if he really wants to be bad, make him attack someone upstairs at the Elfsong!

jacobtan

@Lemernis‌

You can always have him trying to pickpocket someone in the Elfsong, fail, and then to rescue his own sorry skin, force Coran to attack another patron to distract the attention of the guards while he makes his leave.

This can also be a RP way to cut him loose from the party immediately. He might have preferred to be a slimeball but circumstances didn't allow it so he had to flee

And this is also a possible explanation why he didn't flee with as much loot as he wanted... because of the confusion, he couldn't take away the loot from Coran.

Blackraven

It seems that in your head the events and consequences of Edoth's and Coran' thieving spree had already played out: Eldoth was swayed into staying with the party by Coran's expectations of future gains. It's the game engine that's been interfering with your story.
Why not use option 3 or 4? You could always dismiss him from the group at a later stage and roleplay it as him abandoning the party with more treasure than he has at present in his inventory (if you insist on punishing your party for trusting the charismatic charlatan).

Lemernis

@Blackraven That is an astute observation. That is probably the best assessment according to the game method I'm using.

And in that sense, option 5 would actually be most consistent with what I have already done up to the point that the pesky game engine threw a wrench into the works...

That said, I'm not sure which global variable, and what value to set it at. I would assume it is either DXELDOTH or ELDOTHMOVE... anyone know which variable, and what value satisfies the quest?

Blackraven

Lemernis said:

@Blackraven That is an astute observation. That is probably the best assessment according to the game method I'm using.

And in that sense, option 5 would actually be most consistent with what I have already done up to the point that the pesky game engine threw a wrench into the works...

Thank you @Lemernis! And yes, I meant to say option 4 or 5 (rather than option 3 or 4).

jacobtan

Sounds great. If there is no RP issue at all, and it's only the game engine that's giving problems, then it's just about kicking the engine butt with EE Keeper XD

IMO the mandatory NPC quest and reputation stuff can be quite punishing to players. I never was able to recruit evil characters since I get Rep 20 very early. They leave immediately on joining. I also have to work my way around the time frames of mandatory quests.

Lemernis

Hmm. Unless I can set the global variable to the quest to keep Eldoth, it looks like CLUAing him back in after he leaves won't work. He leaves immediately upon joining. Which makes sense, of course, since the variable must be set for him to leave regardless.

I'll either have to find a way to reset the variable, or backtrack to just before he and Coran departed the Elfsong and have him show his true colors.

Blackraven

Resetting the variable should be easy no? What variables do you have re: Eldoth?

Lemernis

Yeah, it's just a matter of knowing which one it is, and what value to set. Actually, I wonder if it is RESCUESKIE, which is set to 4686394. But other candidates include DXELDOTH (which is set to 1) and ELDOTHMOVE (which is set to 3). I don't see any others that look like they would pertain to Eldoth's quest.

Lemernis

I think I have solved this problem by doing the following:

This just before Eldoth's timer reached the one day mark: I CLUAed Skie and added her, temporarily removing Imoen. Then I CTRL+Yed Skie. Then I re-added Imoen.

It seems to have worked. (I believe I should still be able to go add Skie by visiting her at the Silvershield estate if the party wishes, although I don't envision that happening.)

Of course none of this ever happened in the story, it's just some housekeeping re: the game engine.

Blackraven

Ok, I was going to recommend you to make different saves and experiment with the different variables, but your latter solution should do the job.

Lemernis

By the way, after doing the above, under global variables "RESCUEDSKIE" appeared, set at a value of 1. So I would imagine the same resolution could be accomplished (?) by simply adding the global variable RESCUEDSKIE and setting its value to 1 (within one day's time after Eldoth first enters the Baldur's Gate NW map).

Edit: Just tested it. Yeah, it seems to do the same thing. Eldoth doesn't leave after adding that global variable.

Twani

Yeah, I would think Eldoth would stay with the party for now, but still keep the Skie sceme in mine. It's not the money he's after so much as it is the possibility of marrying a noble and being in charge of that noble's family: IE, he wants to beget a child on her so the only respectable conclusion for her family is to marry her off to him. I think he would definitely abandon the party once he finds out Duke Silvershield has been murdered, so he could quickly go back to courting her and hopefully become head of the house and thus have all the riches and fame he desires.

He also might leave once the Iron Throne situation gets hot, but I think the Duke's death would be a major clue to leave or demand the party pick up Skie. A man has his future to care about, after all.