Archer Kit
SionIV
Member Posts: 2,689
Is there a reason BGEE changed it so that an archer can't get grand mastery in slings? Other than it being over the top powerful, people didn't complain about that in the original game though.
Also a fighter with grand mastery in sling and 23-25 STR should be dealing more damage than an archer, no?
Also a fighter with grand mastery in sling and 23-25 STR should be dealing more damage than an archer, no?
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It would be possible to get 23-25 STR without dual classing on an Archer, just rare.
[Edited] : Ignore me, i'm getting uncertain now, loading up my old BG2.
In vanilla installation, no. Not in character creation screen, nor at level up. Weapprof.2da shows 5 profs max for long/short/crossbows, but not slings.
Unless you installed a patch for the 2da file, that's a different story.
EDIT: There is no "Archer" category in the file. It's listed under "Feralan".
At 25 Strength you get +14 damage, unless i remember wrong again the archer doesn't get above +9 from his kit.
According to the manual (caveat: again, I didn't test it since I don't use pure classes), the rate of improvement for archer is reduced to +1 to hit and damage per 5 levels beyond L18 (hence the max +9 bonus... Archers can only get up L34 max). Until then, since the archer can use Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise/Extraordinary Specialization, he probably has a slight edge. Kensais can use Kai, but it's disappointingly short.
Beyond L18, since Kensais continue to have the +1 to hit and damage per 3 levels, he will start to close in on the archer even if the archer is equipped with gauntlets (will take a while though). If it's a Kensai/Thief we are talking about, once he gets UAI he gets access to the gauntlets and he should outperform the archer, assuming the Archer also dualled, of course.
There are many variables, and in conclusion, it depends on archer vs kensai level, dual classes, and even the equip setup. Hard to declare a clear winner.
Comparing axes to bullets, I'd probably place my bet on the axes since there are two axes with special effects (Azuredge +3 and K'logarath +4). Bullets don't really do much in terms of special effects, so the archer, if he wants to deal special effect damage, will have to rely on called shots, which are not infinite in number of uses.
Yes, both archer with sling and kensai with axes are good in their own ways. Archers dish out a limited number of "special effect cocktails" thanks to their called shots, and kensais dish out consistent damage for as long as is required, and of Azuredge and K'logarath, one kills undead and the other knocks down. This is a tough call, and depends on individual style of play. No clear winner
1.) Kensai (Axe)
2.) Pure class fighter with GM in sling
3.) Archer
If the archer uses a bow/crossbow he won't get the STR bonus from sling. If he uses a sling to get the +9 bonus from the kit and +14 from STR he won't have GM and then lose out on APR and some additional damage there.
The axe throwing Kensai is pretty much a very clever way to ignore their restriction, which should have been taken care of in BGEE. But that a normal fighter would be a better 'archer' than an archer, that just doesn't make sense. Yes the archer will have his shots, but he'll still deal less damage even with his +9 than a normal fighter, no?
You pointed out quite rightly that kensais with axes deal more damage. And to sum up what @elminster and I said in our previous posts, kensais can do more damage per hit, but archers can boost damage with equips and make intelligent use of called shots to spam status effect damage and hence equalize the playing field. But after L18, the rate of improvement for archers will slow down and kensais start to close in, then eventually kensais will start to outperform archers by sheer damage advantage.
Still, it's a tough call, because the cocktails of status effect damage can affect how monsters are attacking OTHER party members (e.g. archers hiding behind throwing all the cocktails at a boss when the boss is whacking the tank... so when the boss suffers THAC0 penalty, it basically helps your tank too), so it's not a situation where archers always lose.
1. Archers have racial enemy bonus. A choice of demonic/fell or dragon will boost archers against the deadlier monster types... and this is something kensais don't enjoy.
2. Archers can dual class in EE. Kensais cannot dual to clerics if they want to use axes, so it is reasonably likely that they are capped at 22 Str (by girdle), unless their natural strength is above 22 and/or you use your limited supply of cloud/storm giant potions. Hence, if archers dual to clerics, they can buff themselves with spells like DUHM to boost Str to 24-25, consistently and reliably. Again, this is something kensais probably can't enjoy.
At heart, the archer-with-sling vs kensai-with-axes argument will likely boil down to:
BRUTE FORCE (kensai) vs COCKTAIL OF BONUSES (archer)
Whichever is more relevant in a given scenario means that character (kensai or archer) is better in that situation. No clear winner.
You can also add a few more spells to make it even easier, Globe of Blades can help a lot, so you focus on ranged to other enemies and let those that get closer get slain by it, you can summon freaking Devas to tank for you. You can Turn Undead, heal yourself, inflict shitloads of ranged damage (I know that many ToB bosses have Missile damage resistance, but you should be using spells for those
Bad stuff: Lower XP progression, isn't able to use Slings by default, requires lots of micromanaging (I only care about Archers not being able to put GM in slings).
The duration for the saving throw penalty is 15 seconds. I'm not certain what game file determines this but I've come up with that both from reading statements made by people online and by testing it just now.
So unless you had more than one archer in your group it probably wouldn't be possible to get a penalty that significant. The point mostly is to weaken particular enemies.
Assumptions (I won't bother to rebut any arguments made against them, so just take them as they are):
1. Pure class comparison only. It gets complicated if we count dual/multi/modded builds
2. Character is alone without team support. Team support is considered synergy and is out of scope
3. Only permanent items used (no potions, bullets +4), unless they are infinite (bag of plenty). I focus on consistency and reliability in matchups. NI indicates that there are 17 packs of 40 Bullets +4 in the STO files, but it's only 680 bullets and you still need to ration them. And equips not used is power not realized.
4. Rules are wholly preserved. No removing XP cap, changing existing weapprof.2da file, etc.
I need to set the ground rules so that we have a common basis of comparison. Else everyone is going to use their custom characters and/or installations to argue and we can't make any meaningful comparisons. If you want to vary the assumptions, tweak the results as needed and draw your own conclusions from there
L18 Archer with:
- 2 points in Sling
- 22 Str (from girdle)
- Erinne Sling +5
- Bag of Plenty +2
- Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization
L18 Kensai with:
- 5 points in Axe
- 22 Str (from girdle)
- K'logarath +4
Archer
Base 1d4+3 (average 5.5)
Archer +6
Weapon +5
Specialization +2
Strength +10
Gauntlets +2
TOTAL: 3APR @ 30.5 per hit
Kensai
Base 1d6+4 (average 7.5)
Kensai +6
Specialization +5
Strength +10
TOTAL: 3APR @ 28.5 per hit
Archer has advantage because of his equip access, and he gets double count for using ranged weapons (weapon AND ammunition). Even if you get the gauntlets late (thus he gets no APR bonus), he still can use Called Shots to put himself above the Kensai
Now consider the same set of equips, but for a L34 Archer and a L40 Kensai
Archer
TOTAL: 3APR @ 33.5 per hit
Kensai
TOTAL: 3APR @ 35.5 per hit
Kensai outpaces Archer in raw damage. Of course, Archer can stack two Called Shots on himself because of the 12-second duration as @elminster noted, but this will result in a damage bonus of +4. If Kensai activates Kai, he gets full damage from K'logarath, boosting his base damage from average 7.5 to 10 for a +3.5 damage bonus. He will still come out slightly ahead in raw damage.
As a side note, if Archer uses +4 bullets AND stacks 2 Called Shots on himself, he will get to 39.5 damage per hit vs the Kensai's 39 damage per hit. But like I said, Called Shots are limited (only 8 at L34) and IMO this should be used as a way to debuff bosses and sub-bosses rather than a way to max out damage per hit. Kensai focuses on damage-dealing anyway, so using Kai is pretty much a way to further his strategy.
The above setups are very hypothetical, since they involve late-game items and the sequence of adventuring may result in a different setup at any point (e.g. if you clear Watcher's Keep early, you get the gauntlets, else you have to use gauntlets with no APR bonus). They also do not take into account any dual/multi-classing possibilities, which further complicate the matchup.
Thus said, for the Archer vs Kensai matchup for ranged attacks, the numbers support what @elminster and I had summarized earlier:
1. It depends on levels
2. It depends on what equips you currently have
3. It depends on how you use your equips (e.g. Do you want the gauntlets on someone who is not a front-liner?)
4. It depends on your sequence of adventuring (e.g. Do you go to Watcher's Keep early to get the gauntlets?)
5. It depends on activation of class-unique abilities (i.e. Called Shot and Kai)
6. It depends on what you want to do with your attacks (kill undead/knockdown/weaken boss)
7. It depends on presence of dual/multiclasses
8. It depends on the modding in your installation (e.g. Rules changing)
Therefore, NO clear winner. Both are good in their own way. Again, it's brute force vs cocktail of bonuses.
P.S. I love the game, but I think I've grown to love number crunching more, especially now that vanilla BG is increasingly distorted into a game that is alien and off-putting to me (yes, I'm from that ancient era when we grew up on AD&D and we played by the rules even if we disagreed with them). I take comfort that I will always have numbers to play with even if I leave BG altogether ^_^
Nevertheless, I believe that it is possible to activate called shot multiple times and receive multiple benefits from the ability, at least that is my recollection from old vanilla BG, allowing for 2 or 3 activations and doubling or tripling the penalties, but this may have changed and-or my recollection may be erroneous, which is quite possible.
Using tuigan + infinite arrow +2 + gauntlets of extraordinary spec should yield something like 21.5 damage / shot at 5APR. Ghesen could do more, i am not sure
Even without using called shot, that's the same damage as the kensai. Using improved haste/Critical strike, the damage remains the same.
Between called shot and better special ammo, the archer comes ahead
Against a critical immune ennemy, switch to firetooth loaded with lightning bolts. Using GWW, that should yield better damage output (it is not really significant anyway since we are talking about complete overkill : anything will die in 1 round.)
Anway, IMO, the best damaging ranged attacker is neither the kensai nor the archer :
For me it is a assassin/dualled to fighter.
Poison weapon, at 10 attack / round is completely crazy and it bypasses most magical protections.